Also, it doesn’t cost wood, so yes, we can leave that one outside the bonus.
Not indeed, but makes managing the eco more comfortable. Vietnamese are famous for outlasting their invaders due to several reasons (supplies network and weather/terrain issues). Mongol invasions of Vietnam - Wikipedia
In this regard, a bonus like the new Spanish one would fit them a lot, because it helps to “resist” an invasion with units while also receiving resources for free
I would love for them to get siege elephants just to fit in thematically but I appreciate it would likely be OP and doesn’t actually solve any of their aforementioned issues
It might, but I think we can find some better bonuses. That’s because that bonus is far more helpful for mid-feudal and mid castle age more than anything else. What we need is something which is good from dark age to early castle age. That’s the time when Vietnamese should be playing aggressively to secure their castle age. Also, eco techs are a bit slow to kick in, and it won’t help the play as much as an early military bonus wood.
Considering the other civs with similar play style, we have goths with instant loom, longer lasting hunt and cheaper infantry. Dravidians get barracks tech at half price on top of free 200 food, and they have extra strong skirms. Japanese get faster attacking infantry on top of wood savings from lumber camps and mill. Incas get extra 150 food from the llama, over 100 in wood savings from houses, and save some food with their latest discount.
Following the trend, Vietnamese need a strong resource saving (or extra resources on age up), and something other than extra HP on archers. Or at least, that extra HP should be bumped up.
This is what cumans received in their last buff (archery ranges and stables costing way less wood). But now, there are little room for dark age bonuses mostly because there are few dark age techs/features. The same can be said for feudal bonuses.
They could have their first militia for free to make use of their TC bonus but even so they would have to build a barracks. Or they could have barracks costing little wood.
I still prefer buffing their eco bonus with the extra research speed, or extending ir to archery range techs. If they reach castle age with a top tier eco they would still have a weak point in early castle but that would last less
I find myself inclined to agree with some others, that they were sort of meant to be an early raiding Civ, but they just overestimated the value of immediately knowing your enemy’s position. Combined with a lack of bonuses in the early game towards actually getting any forces out any faster, and you end up with a bonus that is mostly for flavor, with little practical benefit.
If that is instead meant to be a defensive bonus, you could go with something that would allow them to better boom, something perhaps like, they automatically spawn with 10 units of Palisade walls towards their closest enemy. Or maybe 20, 15, something like that. That would give them a strong Head Start towards Walling up, and make booming dramatically safer and more consistent.
I think that archers moving 5% faster would be an excellent bonus. Notice I did not specify foot archers. Any more would be outrageous. Changing the frame rate for Rattans would also help.
This bonus should make ########## Bodkin arrow, bracer, forging and iron casting 50% cheaper. This should help give the early leg up Vietnamese currently lack.
This is why I’m collecting data from aoepulse for the previous patch. Latest patch is only about OG so there is no problem in mixing 2 patches for bigger sample size. This is from aoepulse
Small edit - Total win/game is 1210/2632, actual win rate is 45.97 and average win rate is 45.79%
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Okay forum censor doesn’t allow to share my google spread for Vietnamese.
Can you sort the excel by winrate?
It seems that vietnamese wlrst enemy is mobility (except pure camels)
Vietnamese were designed as a slow push civ. They even lacked husbandry before AOE2DE
This reminds me of teutons. They started to shine after their extra melee buff for infantry and cavalry.
Yeah sure.
Terrible match ups
Fair and good match ups
And siege behind the mobility. Teutons, Celts, Slavs, Bulgarians and Khmer are some of their worst match ups.
Would it? Rattans already move 15% faster than standard archers. I don’t think arbs with 1.1 speed would be overpowered, as long as it did not affect Rattans obviously. It’s still far below Plumes at 1.2 or Cav Archers at 1.4 to 1.54 speed.
That being said, I don’t like the idea of speedy Vietnamese archers. Their identity is tanky archers, and they’re already encouraged to make generic archers over their UU. I’d prefer to see 5/10/15% foot archer speed reserved for a future civ, maybe North American natives.
[REMOVE] Economic upgrades cost no wood.
[REPLACE] Military unit creation buildings cost -20% rescources
[REMOVE “Chatras” 100+ HP] Replacement: Castle Units and Galley line 25% cheaper.
I think the bonus on military buildings will be the correct fix for Vietnamese. It pays back quicker if you go archers to harass enemy eco. In castle age, its sensible to transition to cheaper rattan archers using cheap castles. Then imp to trebs.
Yes both of them have higher frame and attack delay than generic archer line. For Rattan it is so ridiculously big that they are actually worse than archer line in hit and run.
Would you explain your reason for them having a naval bonus out of nowhere?
Absolutely right. The eco bonus is too little. It gets better around the time when you get castle age eco upgrades like hand cart, heavy plow etc but by then they’d already be quite behind.
Are you saying -1 damage from just skirms or -1 from all archers which is effectively +1 p.armor? Even though its useful, its still practically plays out the same, maybe a little better but not going to influence the abysmal win rate by much. A few other equally weak and awful civs like Koreans, Sicilians have a similar bonus and those aren’t doing any better. Imo these bonuses are quite decent if their respective civs’ eco were only a little bit behind most of the others.
This is almost completely irrelevant until the unit line itself gets fixed. Right now its not worth spending 85% more food on units that are dead slow and get insta converted. People have been discussing fixes for that in different threads, maybe one of that gets picked or maybe devs come up with an entirely different way of fixing it. But until then, elephant related buffs are mainly going to impact BF and michi 4v4 players.
This is an amazing suggestion actually. Every map has only 3 or 4 straggler trees near the tc and 50% more means Vietnamese can also compete with the insane fast builds by managing to collect a good amount of wood with fewer vills or choose to do the regular build but take the stragglers and add more farms in early feudal, wall etc.
This bonus ressembles the celt bonus but only for dark age. It is like the mongol hunt bonus, which encourages early aggression. I like it.
To make it more different, in case we want a more fluid bonus:
What if vietnamese villagers dealt bonus damage to straggler trees (so they cut them in one chop), carry more wood and wood last longer? This would make collecting wood from straggler trees more efficient. If straggler trees are enough for skipping the lumberjack for a while. They can afford to skip the lumberjack and the eco upgrade because they save the wood from the tech, and not building the lumberjack would allow them to build a barrack and an archery range sooner. And they would be harder to raid because no woodlines
One thing that surprises me is that Burgundians have a similar bonus and they also got earlier access. In the end it is food vs wood but the idea for them is not just resource saving but to afford the tech before other civs and have the advantage. But for Vietnamese it is only the resource saving. 100% faster is way smaller than early access and it won’t be anywhere close. Although it has its own advantage of having more villagers.
What is also surprising is that both of these civs also a have similar UT to generate gold but again Vietnamese one is in Imperial but Burgundian Vineyard is in Castle Age.
You can add that vietnamese save a bit more resources except for wheelbsrrow and handcart. However, food is more important.
I had the same idea but i think 100% faster eco tech should be a bonus for another civ as has the potential to be really strong with wheelbarrow and handcart for example and well as smoothing your eco
Only wheelbarrow. Either way resource type are different. So amount difference is less important than the end result.
I also thought so. Then you need something for Vietnamese. Maybe TB changing to a more archer focus like archer line takes 1 less damage from cavalry will help.
I am toying with a straggler tree bonus. The faster gathering is double edge because not going for straggler trees early is wiser (either for raids or for gathering points while you are setting your eco). But they could have other bonuses such as longer lasting trees or a khmer-farm-like bonus, or a combination of bonuses (like goth bonuses for hunting compared to the unic mongol hunting bonus), so I wont discuss the details of the straggler tree bonus.
So, with any straggler tree bonus, they might be able to delay a lumbercamp for a while. Combined with their enemy TC revealing bonus that enables for sooner deer luring… Would they be able to go for a pre-mill, pre-lumbercamp drush?
Delaying one lumbercamp shouldnt be a problem for researching the wood upgrade as most build orders go for 2 lumbercamps soon.
