Big brain move - Since you already know your enemy location, send villagers forward to enemy base and lame their straggle tress. 11
2 Likes
Actually, you could do that with pallisade laming before!
why not remove their wood discount and give them “lumberjacks drop 10% more wood” like new malians bonus but not 15 (which also should be lowered)?
That would feel like a worse version of the celt bonus.
In case of malians, golf is a more valuable resource for the long term because gold is finite, but in most maps wood is almost infinite. The modt noticeable advantage would be straggler trees and less holes in your walls.
Besides, the current eco bonus of vietnamese have the particularity of being tied to the eco techs, which precludes you from certain strategies such as Hoang style. I think that identity is something interesting to preserve: the ability of investing in eco with low resources so you can be one step forward of your oponent even when being attacked.
Vietnamese eco bonus eventually runs out after researching the last eco tech, but after that vietnamese have some trash war bonuses (paper money and imperial skirm). The problem is that vietnamese lack the durability for endure until gold completely runs out, and lack any eco advantage in dark age. So they tends to be behind other civs with stronger eco bonuses or discounts.
So either they need one little push in dark age, AND something that allow them to resist before trash war starts.
1 Like
In reality, it would be an enhanced version of Celts’ bonus, since it includes:
- lumberjacks work X% faster (actual Celt Bonus)
- lumberjacks carry x% more wood
- wood last X% longer
And it’s true that wood is not a rare resources in most cases, but a similar bonus would sinergize with the Paper Money Tech, that could be moved to Castle Age.
It would have effect since Dark Age, not having to wait for economic upgrades, and it would scale in something useful for an archer civ.
1 Like
Personally I would prefer a military bonus to avoid the eco bonus creep but meh I’d take anything really 
What would be the impact of upping archer hp to 30% ?
1 Like
Just from skirms. You have to remember, this would be on top of their HP bonus, so in Feudal age, they’d be effectively 50% stronger against skirms, which would make them a very challenging unit to counter for early aggression.
If necessary, you could scale it per age, maybe 1/2/3, forcing enemies into using counters other than skirms against them. Combined with Paper Money, this could make them excessively potent in post-imperial, though.
1 less second to chop is 0.4% faster collection on a 100 wood tree. +5 carry capacity is approximately 2number of tiles from tc% faster compared to a generic civ. Tree needs to be 7 tiles away just to match the celtic bonus on such trees. And those trees are roughly 8number of tiles % slower than forest. So its still enormously inefficient and you can’t get any extra wood compared to other civs. You still have to do a lumber camp, you can’t skip it.
Whereas in his version of the bonus, the trees upto 5 tiles away from tc will give wood faster but when distance is 5 tiles or more it’s slower compared to gathering from forest with a lumber camp. It’ll be somewhat similar to the Dravidian bonus in feudal age on land maps. You still cant skip lumber camp but with 4 vills on stragglers you’d get wood faster than 5 on lumbercamp with a generic civ, so you can afford to be one pop sooner, use the extra wood on farms or faster blacksmith etc.
This is a great bonus too. Saves about 100 on crossbow, 130 on skirm upgrade, 250 on thumb ring. Quite good.
Quite decent for wheelbarrow, gives 1.5 villager advantage.
I like your set of changes as well. It keeps them as a generic civ in the first 15 mins but makes them significantly better in early castle age. Personally I’d prefer the straggler bonus since it feels unique and has interesting potential but yours keeps their identity as a non-rush late game oriented civ.
1 Like
Thanks, this is very insightful! I already guessed that one less chop would add less efficiency than the old incan team bonus, but I thought that the carry bonus would be more useful. In that case, the only thing good besides extra gathering speed is the trees lasting longer, or both together (like the malian bonus, as @EvilPanda494 suggested). I think that losing your strangler trees sooner is something we should try to avoid when we can. Another alternative is the khmer style, with the bonus “Lumberjacks don’t require lumbercamps Centers to drop off wood from solitary trees”. This way, the distance from the town center doesn’t mind at all., while preserving the faster gathering rate and boosting the efficiency a bit.
That’s a decent bonus as well. Lower than 50% bonus on stragglers upto 4 tiles away, equal at 5 tiles and better above that. But this is more of a strong closed map and maybe hybrid map bonus. On land maps, its a significantly smaller bonus. Maybe its good if its combined with something else like cheaper range techs or something like @FurtherLime7936 mentioned.
We are pretty early with drawing conclusions. This is all based of at most 200 games. That isnt much. Even most civ match ups are based on like 5 examples. That doesnt say much.
This thread is started when the winrate on the current patch was 32%. It already climbed to 37%. That is still pretty low, but already shows how volatile win rates are when only based on this small number of games.
I agree that the raw stats of 32% is grossly incorrect because of how small the sample size is but Vietnamese have been one of the bottom 10 at 2k+ elos over several years. Since Kotd-4 their winrate is 10th lowest at higher elos across 100,000 overall games and about 1400 games for Vietnamese which is a good sample size . The civs which had equally worse winrates like Malay, Japanese, Dravidians, Bengalis, Goths, Spanish have received considerable buffs over this time. A few like Koreans, Vietnamese, Persians have remained untouched and that’s only going to make things worse for them. I think that’s @DemiserofD 's point. There are separate buff or rework suggestions for Persians, Koreans as well.
2 Likes
Technically they’ve both been indirectly nerfed with the increased xbow/ alb cost and the introduction of gambersons
8 Likes
yeah it’s mind blowing to me that they decided to buff other civs that did way better than Vietnamese while keeping indirectly nerfing Vietnamese in almost every single patch.
4 Likes
You can add all the available patches in different sites for a bigger picture. And honestly, it won’t change much. Vietnamese always struggled to have a 40% W/R at that level.
2 Likes
My suspicion is it’s because the pros regard them as balanced / having good utility in tournament play. It does feel more generally that the Devs are focusing on the pro scene more than casuals which I find a little disheartening. Like archers generally tend to underperform compared to cav at the <1600 elos yet archers were (albeit minorly) nerfed anyway because they over perfom at the pro level 
4 Likes
They were one of the least picked civs across all tournament formats. They might not be the least in any but bottom-5 draft rate across all of them. Its just the dev things of arbitrarily choosing certain civs for buffs and nerfs while ignoring some. Like Portugese, they might receive a strong buff maybe 4 or 5 years later, in some random patch out of nowhere.
4 Likes
This same thing can be said for Italians too. They are also kinda similar to Vietnamese in terms of gameplay and balance in land maps.
2 Likes
Even neither of them received gambesons…
1 Like
I would add Italians to that list honestly
2 Likes