The Vikings have been heavily changed. Their Elite Berserk should be able to throw a fairly high damage axe every 30 seconds. Let’s say 18. Archer with 40 hp, 3 melee when taking 18 damage, they lose 15 HP from the throwing axe. Range 4. 2 less than a elite frank’s throwing axemen.
2 axe throws will nearly kill an archer, third axe will kill them.
Viking Archers. Don’t have Thumb Ring. Lost gambesons.
While you have siege engineers , you don’t siege oangers, or bombard cannon. As it stands right now, your best units late game on land is Berserks, Champions (in melee only) Varangian Guard, and heavy scorpions. Siege Rams, Onagers. With this change, the Berserk can damage an enemy before getting into a fight.
Vikings need a buff that makes them viable lategame. If a buff makes them better in feudal to early imp they’ll just nerf something else. A buff is needed, but it needs to be lategame only, and it needs to be expensive to tech into.
Not on theme. Better to make infantry more pop efficient, or archers cheaper.
Berserk is strong, but for a Champion replacement UU Elite Berserk is weak in imperial. Even with four castles they can’t compete with other strong infantry civs in strength, or production speed, but what I’d buff is strength to give them a unique pop efficiency approach, and increase the cost of Elite Berserk.
When they gave Vikings VG’s I was hoping the extra HP pool mattered, but the nerf to pierce armor makes it one of the weaker VG’s after castle age. I see taking gambesons from them as a necessary castle age nerf to VG’s. Any sort of buff to them on Bogsveigar can be nice. but you need to make it a more expensive tech.
What I’d do to fix it is.
Elite Berserk Upgrade should get these stats in addition to what it has now: +8 HP
+1 Attack
+1 Pierce Armor
Cost 400F 300G more, so 1475F 775G total
Total Research Time 135 seconds
Replace Bogsveigar with Leidang: Archers, Varangian Guards, and Longships have +2 Pierce Armor and +1 Attack.
Cost 1750F 450G
Total Research Time 225 seconds
Vikings have another thematic unit to play around with now so it’s fitting that it’s included, and their Imp tech need to make their late imp better. Now they fall off way too hard, and the lack of gambesons arguably makes them weaker than they already were in the lategame.
I’d also change their team bonus. It’s not bad, but it’s boring. Docks, Barracks, and Archery Ranges give +10 Population Space.
This do something very similar for the economy, but it’s more fun to play around with.
None of these bonuses changes what Vikings is about, and up to early Imp they are virtually unchanged, but it should make them a lot more fun to use in Post Imp scenarios.
Anything done to buff Vikings early will get something else nerfed. They do not need to be stronger in the early game, but they need a significant lategame buff.
Wildroad is quite ok but unusual like bersek but bersek still worse than they too, + 2 vs cavalry summon will give they more effect include late game, upgrade too high cost make it really hard to use and HP bonus is hard to accept, beside need cheftain return loot gold from monk + monastery + caravan, village maybe too easy but is other not.
I gotta disagree. That team bonus is essential for water games and is part of why Vikings run the sea. It used to be 25%.
As good as what you’re suggesting might be (it should probably just be all military buildings +10 pop) it won’t be as good as cheaper docks. I mean you could argue saving 50 on houses for some navy isn’t shabby but it isn’t be all end all!
Also +2 pierce armor arbs might be a tad too good if also paired with +1 dmg
It gives you virtually the same economic impact. Your water games should not feel different if the change is made. If you give it to all military buildings it’s less thematic to the Viking Leidang system, and it’s arguably too strong for a team bonus. Military housing was a big part of making the core Viking armies work.
I can see the worry, but this is late imp exclusive. For many civs I’d agree with you, but Vikings are so abysmally weak at this stage of the game that they need something strong. Had they gotten thumb ring I’d be more conservative.
I tried to be thematic here too. Part of the Leidang system was that warriors were given equipment if they were lacking. Weapons, armor, often even clothes. They liked being uniform. In one battle they even describe the King ordering they carry in boxes full of new sharp swords, because the battle had lasted so long the swords had gone dull. I was trying to be thematic with this bonus.
maybe add +1 attack to skirmishers too with the Imperial UT… they already have a good bonus vs cavs for all infantries, a great regional unit that does a lot of damage, a little more help against archers is the best they could get without bombard cannons
the only con is that skirms with +1 would do 2x damage to generic light cav or cavaliers (from 1dmg to 2dmg)
But I don’t know if Vikings need to be great in imperial too.. they already have one of the best (if not the best) eco bonus and a good mid game
I want them to work when all upgrades are done. Last time I picked Vikings in FFA I was told to maybe pick a better civ next time. Having all the relics, a better position, better eco, and four castles producing Berserks nonstop plus extra military buildings wasn’t enough to even resist a Goth spam for a short while. Give me any other strong infantry civ, and the same scenario would have been an easy win. Even Aztecs could have done it, and Aztecs have the same problem.
Another recent thread spoke of the same issue in team games, so I’m starting to think civs being weak lategame is something that only 1v1 players can ignore. Because their games usually don’t last long enough for the atrocious lategame balance in a few civs to be a big problem. Ranked 1v1 play was in Starcraft2, the sweatshop of RTS’s, shown to be roughly 5% of the playerbase. It’s only a few civs, but they’re very broken for the rest of us. I want them to be playable, because they look fun, but are trash in the lategame.
Berserks and Champions are too similar which means simply buffing them would simply make them a better Champion.
My idea is the make Chieftains only affect Barracks units and then buff the Berserks in different ways. One idea would give them 2 PA (3 for Elite) which makes them a lot better at raiding but worse against Cavalry. To fight Cavalry you can then use Champions and Varangian Guards, which themselves are weak against Archers.
This would give the different Infantry units more different roles and less overlap.
Which civ has a unit that counters both Paladins and Arbalests efficiently in Imperial Age. A unit that is both good against Archers and Cavalry sounds kinda OP. Elite Varangians have 2 base PA, as much as a Champion with Gambesones, so it’s not like they are particularly weak to Archers.
Also a civ with booth strong Paladins and strong Arbalesters would be OP too of course.
I mean archers more broadly. Huns and Magyar have Paladins and some of the best Cavalry Archers in the game. Malay have discount Battle elephants and fully upgraded Arbelester. Persions have War Elephants and no gold Crossbows. To name a few.
Problem Vikings has, is that when your cav is trash, and your siege not great, you need infantry that can take some arrows, because your skirms are going to be busy throwing their spears at their frontliners. Cavalry is usually more pop efficient, and except elephants are faster, so they get to choose when the engagement starts. If the units I have to face their cav can’t also do okay against arrows, I do not have a way to kill their archers, that their cav can’t intercept. With a civ like Teutons I go around this problem by mixing Teutonic Knights and Paladins. TKs or Halbs to push, and Paladins to loop around, causing chaos. Imperial age Vikings have no units that are strong or fast enough to do either, so my push is not convincing, and my looping around is seen too fast and intercepted.