Vikings balance discussion

Hey guys,

It’s been a while that I created a balance discussion, but now I’m back with one. :smiley: Take this post seriously please, it is TIME that we bring the QUALITY to balance discussions back, because lately most of these discussions and topics have been shitshows (cough cough Equalizer).

Anyways, after this brief start, let’s get into it:

Vikings have always been a top tier civ (atleast in DE). You just can’t deny it. They have atleast as strong archers (just because of their eco bonuses) as most of the ACTUAL archer civs’ which have a direct archer bonus (a boost to stats or discount), if not stronger. On Random Maps, other “S tier” civs were pretty competitive with vikings, because of their dark age bonus (for example chinese or mayan villager bonus, aztec eco bonus, briton sheep bonus, frank berry bonus, etc).

But now, when Empire Wars has just become an official ranked gamemode, a nerf to Vikings is necessary. Vikings are even stronger in this gamemode than other S tier civs, since these S tier civs lose all of their dark age bonus, while Vikings don’t have any. Now let’s take it over again why Free wheelbarrow and handcart are so strong.

These two technologies literally save them 725 resources (technologys’ costs) and gives them 6 FREE VILLAGERS (ok, you need 300 food for that, but thats still much smaller than the 725 resources you save). From that point, these 6 villagers - which you basicly have and your oppenet doesn’t have in a fair matchup - will CONSTANTLY create your resources that your oppenet doesn’t get.

Vikings are undoubtably the top 1 civ in EW gamemode without contester (fun fact: just look at statistics of any Red Bull tournament) on arabia-like maps, not to mention they also excel on water. They need a HUGE nerf as SOON as possible, I don’t want to have every second of my EW matches against a vikings player in the middle of August, because I’m pretty sure most of the players will realise it till then.

So, hear out my propositions:

  1. Lose free hand cart upgrade

Explanation: Vikings have only got 4 instant civ bonuses: HP bonus to infantry, warship discount, dock discount, and this eco upgrade everyone knows about. I think we can safely say that the first 3 of these bonuses hardly ever if not never get a use in a typical arabia-like map. Therefore it’s literally this upgrade which carries vikings all from the botton the the top of the tierlist, to be exact to the top 1 in EW gamemode. They need to lose free handcart, its a must. Before people keep saying that it is too big of a nerf, let me tell you: free wheelbarrow is already a VERY HUGE bonus. And it is much better for a civ to be mid-tier than top1 by far.

  1. Docks cost -25%, warships cost -15%

Their early game on water maps is just weak compered to other civs, because they lack fire ships. A slithly bigger dock discount will help. To balance out the effect of this bonus in imperial age, their warships discount should be reduced to -15%

What do you think? Feel free to post any constructive critisim but make sure it doesn’t turn into a shitshow :stuck_out_tongue:

i think this should be a given at this point.

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I think I would not like to change the balance of the base game for the sake of EW. Granted, the balance is already pretty bad, but at least let’s not make it even worse.

Best solution is to give EW it’s own set of game-rules and balance, such that it applies only to EW – and then feel free to tweak around with whatever values freely.

TL;DR even if Vikings need a change in the base game, they probably need a different change than the change that is specifically for making EW more fair

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balance or design? because outside of 4-5 bad civs and 4-5 over the top civs, most civs are in a solid spot. that doesn’t scream bad balance to me.

except vikings are insanely strong even in regular maps.


That is largely due to archers being too good since lag is no longer a thing. Anything that you can micro is quite a bit better than intended. And that is why I would suggest splitting the balance for EW and normal, because the required changes are different

Well that’s actually the problem. It reminds me of the era where you pick huns, meso civs, or you’re at a huge disadvantage (long time ago that was, well before DE)

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What about keeping free wheelbarrow and handcart but giving them -2 villagers in EW ?


never played LAN back in the day?

except back then it was 3 great civs and most others were dumpster tier not even worth using. water play used to be pure vikings. now you got 3 civs that are great on water, you got 3-4 others that can hold their own, and a bunch that hold up well in the short term.

now? very few civs are so bad that you wouldn’t want to use, and most are right where they should be. balance is far better then it was ever before.

does nothing about how strong they are in random map.

Sometimes, but those games were not very fair, because skill levels were all over the place :stuck_out_tongue: so real multiplayer was the only meaningful… way to play (as in skill difference was so much that lag or no lag, if I would’ve played with full seriousness then no one would’ve ever played LAN with me)

yay now it’s 5 civs and dumpster tier, woo-hoo!

nah. most the civs are in a good spot. they aren’t dumpster tier. you nerf Mayans/Aztecs/Vikings/Chinese/Burgundians and Lithuanians and buff some of the lower civs like Saracens and Sicilians and most the others are well balanced.

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If you drop 200 elo and then compare to the top 5 civs, then sure, I agree. Otherwise, skill levels being equal, it’s not good (ok 200 is maybe exaggerating a bit, but you know what I mean :wink: )

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I don’t feel like it is good idea to balance the game around EW. It is just one of the game mode. We did not balance around DM.
Or just let EW as own set of game balance and do not change other game mode because of that.


really? hmm.
here is heras latest tier list of all civs.

if you nerfed burgundians, vikings, chinese, mayans, aztecs, and lithuanians, (and most of those wouldn’t need large nerfs) and buffed 4-5 of the lowest civs), almost all civs would be in what is now the a/b/c tier range. that isn’t badly balanced at all.

Vikings are balanced outside of EW, in EW i wouldnt nerf them i would just buff the other civs like chinese, persians and lithuanians and give them their dark age bonuses back so theres other good civs. But the devs decided against this for some reason so i guess we’ll just have to live with it.


I agree with that opinion. I doubt Chinese, Lithuanians and Persians starting bonus taken away on EW was necessary. Because they are not better than Vikings/Ethiopians in EW anyway. But devs decided to take out their bonus in starting and we’ll just have to live with it.

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I think it has less to do with specific civs (although I mayans, chinese, lith and some other civs for sure need nerfs), but also that so many things have already been nerfed that the few remaining viable strategies (and the civs good at employing them) perform too well in comparison.

That’s more design and less civ balance though.

If a stream of bad balance changes is a design…

My issue is that I REALLY don’t want balance changes based around EW. If it’s an EWs change only then I have no issue with it.

In general I don’t love seeing major nerds to a well established civ. Viking feel pretty balanced in normal play. Maybe I’m odd, but I’d rather the balance focused on buffing the bottom few civs, and only giving slight nerds to the highest ones.

My favorite balance changes though are the ones that don’t focus on a specific civ only. Case in point, if Hand cannons are weak, fixing the unit before buffing say, Portuguese prevents issues with balance coming in later if Portuguese are first buffed specifically and then buffed again with HC indirectly.


just because you don’t like them doesn’t make them bad.

i know you liked your towers but when the best way to beat a strategy is to go to the next age and use siege against it, a strategy has issues.

mm well just because you like them doesn’t make them good.

towers is just a small slice of the pie… it’s not even worth bringing up on a thread about vikings mate