Vote - Dravidians civ design analysis

You also should’ve included a question about how much someone plays dravs. If someone doesn’t play the civ, their opinion is basically worthless. Unfortunately, you can’t edit it now, because it will reset the poll.

It depends on the situation, it’s mostly why I voted no on making Stables but yes on making Light Cav. They help with sniping Monks, and your other army can fight the rest. My opinion is also skewed as I tend to play more BF (and is where you see smushes pretty often). On open maps those situations are rarer so you might not need Light Cavalry whatsoever.

What if you play on random? I hate civpicking usually. 11

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Just give the civ husbandry and call it a day.

That’s fair. It’s just that you need to spend some time playing them and understand the civ. My guess is that most people haven’t played enough games with them. Lots of high elo players who always go random hate the civ. Heartt and MBL have huge rants about them, for example.
The only pro players who like playing dravidians on arabia are Viper and Lord Daut. But we can’t play like the Viper. There is only one Viper, and we can’t balance the game just for him. (Actually, I wouldn’t care, because I love theviper, but that’s different).

I think Dravidians are not as bad as everyone thinks
They are just different to play and very difficult to master
I’m not saying they don’t need anything, a little help from the devs to make them more appealing will be enough for now

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Well, here are the issues with Dravidians.

  1. Making Stable is pointless. Imagine a meso-civ without any good economy bonuses and Eagles. They have Elephants instead of Eagles. But Elephants as units are not designed for meta play. They play like the forgotten meso-civ. Despite having a stable, Dravidians can’t make any cavalry against meso civs. This is a huge design flaw.

  2. Their units get none of the speed upgrades on any of their units except squires. Monks and light cav are both slow. You can’t even fight for Relics on Arena. Dravidians are not a booming civ either. So they can’t take fight early due to lack of eco bonuses. They can’t last long wihtout relices. They are shut-off from both win conditions. This is a pretty big hole in the design which needs a fix either with an eco bonus or with tech-tree support like bloodlines & fervour combo or Bloodlines & husbandry combo.

  3. Dravidians lack all the last eco upgrades except 2-man saw. It was okay when costs were high and those techs were not getting researched. But now, both Gold shaft mining and stone shaft-mining are cheaper which is a nerf to Dravidians any way you look at it. It was not compensated by civ bonuses either. A re-work is needed to fix this power creep.

  4. The civ has had a glaring weakness in its design since inception which Hera pointed out.:

Hera gave a solution to that as well. He said Devs should give Dravidians both Knights and Bombard cannon. But they did a half-measure with just BBC added in the next patch. These kind of half baked fixes mean that they kept on underperforming.

Finally they got a Siege discount which does not even fit the civ identity. Now the civ looks like a hotchpotch of band-aid fixes. Dravidians need some serious re-work.

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Its a great poll. Couple of things I wanted to point out. Some people might not want any one particular thing in the poll but some combination of these things. And some things might be unnecessary if others are given. Like if they get good stable, redemption is less important. If siege discount is replaced with eco bonus, urumi rework might be less necessary and so on.
And players who like playing water maps or TG Nomad might want to keep the fishing bonus, so there’s the map based bias as well.

Thanks @Pulikesi25
New questinare added to original poll in 1st post of thread. please update your feedback there.
I’ve added more questions on Elephant archers and Medical corps as well.

I would like an option for just “add Husbandry”. As honestly that’s the furthest I think they need changes.

For the wootz steel question there is no ‘no changes’ or just ‘bring it to castle age’ option.

Wootz Steel at half cost and same effect in Castle Age is bonkers, in my opinion.

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In his response video to Hera, Viper accidentally probably had a realization that Dravidians were underpowered from his own stats. His win rate as Dravidians is 60.9% which is better than Hera at 53.3%. But we have to look at what the percentages mean here mathematically and not Viper’s opinion of it:

  1. 60.9% as Dravidians is less than his win percentages across all time spans from 5mins to more than 45 mins. What it means is that he is likely is win with a different civ across different time-spans rather than Dravidians even if by a small margin. Dravidians are pulling down his stats. Not boosting them.
  2. 80% winrate against Dravidians and 60% as Dravidians means. He is 33% more likely to win if he is not Dravidians when playing Random. This proves Viper himself is trying to carry Dravidians hard. But stomping on them given a chance.

Please go through the voting again. Some edits and poll name change might have invalidated your votes. The poll will stay as is from now on. Let us put out our opionion while the Pro players exchange theirs about Dravidians.

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May I know the website please?

Also wins against which players matters a lot. With all respect, top 10-12 players are really ahead of rest of the top 20 players.

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That one is aoe2insights. It’s really cool as it lets you analyze your games and see the effective APM in those matches, along with those civ stats.

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Btw, viper reacted to this thread yesterday

Thanks. Can I see tournaments matches specifically?

Where? Can you share the link?

It’s facebook streaming, so idk how the link works. I was watching it live, it was great :smiley:

As usual, this forum in censoring everything.

fb.gg

forward slash v forward slash (/v/)

mW_xNQhOmq/

?mibextid=Nif5oz

You might be better off if you have a facebook account. I don’t have one, so it’s a huge pain in the butt.

Thanks. I’ll see it later. If I’m not asking too much, may you also mention the time stamp?

I quickly skimmed the video, he starts reacting to these forums at around 3:20:00.

No idea if he continues for a while or not, watching it as I write 11

Yeah, I think it might be more convenient to just put spaces everywhere in the link, I can only assume the randomly generated letters in URLs is what the censor thinks is bad (but it’s weird as you posted the entire URL in two parts and didn’t get censored 11). The forum censor truly is a mystery of the ages.

I don’t think so? It’s pretty much raw data, so every game you’ve played gets tracked there and tournament games are shown by their lobby names. So your best bet is filtering by Unranked and then by opponent. But it’s not really meant as a way to track your tournament matches.

Liquipedia works for that apparently, there’s a head-to-head filter? If you want to get that game on aoe2insights, you’ll just have to find it from their history, which will be tedious (especially if it’s an older game, where the analyze function might fail at anyway)

Thanks. That will help.

I really want to check civ stats among the top 10-12 pro players in tournaments.

You can filter by civilization there too, so… filter by opponent, civilization, and then Unranked? Not sure if that gives the results you wish. 11

Tried quickly doing so with selecting ‘played civ’ as Dravidians, unranked, and opponent to be Hera. It gives me Hera as Dravidians for some reason, so I suppose it’s not working perfectly, but I guess you can tediously gather the stats this way. It’s also a little awkward since I don’t know if the filtering works perfectly when a pro player has an alias, so you’ll also have to make sure the correct name gets filtered ### But I assume it already takes into account player aliases (since you can see f.e. Viper’s aliases there, and when you search for players even their past aliases can bring up results).

Do note that not all games end up on aoe2insights, I’ve had some games I’ve played unranked there not show up (not all games get recorded which might be why? All ranked games should generally be there but again, not 100% sure).

Anyway, Viper’s reaction to the Dravidians thread (and this thread) was a bit funny, though he’s not going to really have an insightful opinion as he’s not going to read through the 1k responses (and the posts he did see on the main thread were from a year ago). With this thread though, even he forgot the Siege discount for Dravidians. 11