Mahouts should be replaced like Madrash and Orthodoxy. With all the awesome changes devs have implemented like reworking older civs and giving us radical civs with no CA or knights, i think persians need a little uplifting as well
they definitely arent a weak civ, but they have extremely generic play outside of douching. and it would be awesome if we saw the war elephant a little more.
not sure what new UT they should gain, but thinking of something to do with countering eagles or supplementing their garbage LS (only civ that lacks 2HS onwards) in a similar way to how the new civs have various units that cover each other’s weaknesses. Especially if Kamandaran shifted to imperial age, it opens up more flexibility for the mahouts replacement
Replace it with Sassanid Seccesionists: Cavalry archers cost -60% gold.
They lack Bracer anyway, and at least give another ranged option for post imperial.
Or replace effect of Mahouts by giving War Eles stomp charge. Basically similar charge attack than Urumi (charge attack with Splash damage) and a speed buff (f.e 1.1 speed) since charge is full charged until the charge attack is released. Then, while the charging attack is loading war ele become slow as we know it.
Of Course, charge bar should take more time to refill than Urumi, even than Coustillier, and shouldn’t refill if ele is garrisoned.
Persians have a rly nice boom, a hard-to-push TC in Castle age due to extra HP, and arguably the best Stable in the game with FU Paladin, Hussar, Heavy Camel. They are very solid in team games and acceptable in 1v1s (which is more important) and they have a strong niche on hybrid maps as a top 3 civ.
On arena they are OK also.
I don’t think one should buff civs for buffs’ sake, Persians make sense design-wise and even though they are lower than average overall in terms of strength, someone needs to be in that spot. Buff them and the other UP civs, and suddenly we end up with “buff Ethiopians” threads.
Return half cost if War Ele is converted ( They still are slow, but with this and Kamandaran you have to invest but you cover both Eles’ weaknesses, monks and pikes)
All OP.
I think it will be good to buff Persian Cavalry Archers. Not price, but stats, to make them more usable. Cmon, Parthians (from whom Parthian Tactics have name) lived in Persia.
(Actually a little to the north innitially, but this was before Medieval Times, as well as Parthians themselves)
I don’t think Mahouts should be removed. Rather it should add either bonus damage or conversion resistance.
But War Eles definitely need a base ms increase (I suggest 0.65 but no higher than 0.7). As they are now at 0.6 ms they are slow as heck. Ele archers are the fastest Ele unit atm with 0.9 ms, faster than a Battle Ele at 0.85 and benefit from Husbandry. Let that sink in.
I mean, it’s fine if you want to buff cavalry archer instead of their stable units. But I can’t think of anything to buff them instead of giving Persian bracer upgrade.
PS: Actually, Persian can have a bonus for CA where they take half counter bonus damage and do 1.5x bonus damage. Another option is making their team bonus also affect CA, which will help them doing more damage on other CA and archers but at the cost of less range due to no Bracer.
I like the idea of thinking outside the box but most of these are OP and /or we end up to similar situation to the disliked Sicilians cavalier, I don’t think it’s good design to make generic units more resistant to their counters(specifically without drawbacks), but rather better to buff their own counters to the counters (like Hindus with buffed HC and buffed camels, or Malian champs lacking BF)
I also like this idea, but not sure it works with the overlap with kama? Now you’re encouraged to go for both CA and trashbow? When they both have the same counter
I also think it would’ve been great if Persians had better CA, but now they have trashbow I think that ship has sailed
That being said I would take this any day over mahouts. An alternative (if we’re sticking with CA) could be something like +3 MA for CA?
I don’t think anyone is disputing how slow the WE is. BE arguably need a speed buff to 0.9 anyway, on top of some other buffs, but I think that’s for another thread
So you think WE should move at 0.7 and still get mahouts? That’s also good. That takes them up to 1 speed with husbandry. Currently they’re at 0.86 so that’s a big buff. It’s faster than my recommendation of 0.94 max speed but don’t need the expensive tech
No they are super bad on arena. Stable units aren’t too great here and trash bow isn’t pop efficient. You’re left with good eco which btw also kicks in rather late and you have no early imp momentum with the civ. You have bad infantry and bad monks. Decent siege and that’s it.
But they are strong on hybrid maps so I guess the civ is fine even if it’s not meta outside of four lakes or the like. And even if it was to be buffed war elephants shouldn’t be the way to go (as buffing units like that can easily break the civ).
You mean like boyars, leitis, tk, keshiks, mamelukes(and the list goes on) shouldn’t have been buffed?
I’ll let the players know they shouldn’t get nice toys
People said boyars would be OP pre buff and then they were buffed twice and given cheaper castles, so actually buffed thrice
WE will still be super slow, bottlenecked at castles and still hard countered by monks, which every civ has. All that’s happening here is removing an expensive tech and increasing peak speed by 0.08. do you still think WE would be OP? Nevermind OP, do you still think they would BREAK the civ?
Not sure about the UT change but i would be all for a Speed buff for war Elephant. They are so slow its not even a funny and they are totally a meme unit atm
How about make war elephants more powerful against buildings and weaker against units, like a stronger version of siege elephant? like 600HP, 10atk, -2/150armor, 0.6speed, cannot be convert from distance, +120 against buildings
Ohh I’m just agreeing with the OP here that’s all.
Either 0.65 or 0.7 base ms is fine but no higher. Mahouts can be tweaked to increase/decrease ms and cost as needed, but adding either bonus damage/conversion resistance to the tech would really help them out. 1 ms would be too op for War Eles when comparing them to other ele units imo.
They already have HC and Trashbows. I agree with Cav Archer getting buffed, but that’s too similar to Kamandaran. I would rather they get Bracer and lose HC. That way it’s more thematic and still buffs Cav Archers.
Parthians are still Persian, and they eventually became the Sasanid empire after they were defeated. But I agree with Cav Archer buff. As mentioned before giving them Bracer and removing HC would be a start.
No this has nothing to do with boyars or any other UU for that matter. It’s simply about the most pop efficient unit in the game with 600 hp has to be bad for 1v1 regular maps. You know how elephants were nerfed bc of khmer or how elephant archer are one of the best units for tg mega boom maps? That’s because when you get to 50 of them these are unstoppable for most civs. To keep that balance these units have to virtually impossible to get to in 1v1.
I mean sure you can make war elephants faster, cheaper and so but then you need to make them less tanky and have less atk so it’s basically a battle elephant.
this might create a problem fighting certain infantry though, they almost need this to fight goths and malians and eagles for example(potentially even ghulams if supported with camels), because they lack the 2hs or champ which would normally be used as a counter for arrow resistant infantry
even though they have (generic) cavalier, they will find it harder fighting infantry backed with pikes/halbs in imperial. while giving them bracer helps their trashbow too much in the situations they are already good
which brings us back to allowing the UT to buff them in specific ways that wont make them OP
maybe the UT could give CA +2 damage? or +5 bonus damage vs infantry? so they get a piece of the benefit bracer would bring, without buffing their trashbow
i like this idea as well, persians currently have a full siege works without SO and Siege Eng. they could potentially remove siege ram and change the war ele like this.
ironically the WE already looks fairly similar to the siege ele
