Water rework - "Mesoamerican" Aztec, Inca, Mayan Cannon Galleons

Giving them the cannon galleon indeed screams “placeholder” until they give them something more appropriate as a long-range siege ship, the absence of which made them hopeless on water maps (cannot counter castles by sea). Just like the dromon was given to Byzantines and other civs that were mostly relevant before gunpowder and more recently the Lou Chuan to Chinese civs.

Making the rework is the priority, making a new unit that will be close from a reskin is of lesser priority, as it will build on the new system.

That regional ship should first be a long-range anti-building unit with some catapult on it, and considering how Meso civs feel, maybe also make it strong in melee as it would have quite a lot of warriors on board. Making it best countered by ranged ships. So a dual-mode unit, long range use the catapult, short range against ships have a boarding attack like the hulk.

1 Like

I didn’t get why the Byzantines get the Dromon.

The Imperial Age starts with 1453 in the game. It is a “what if?” scenario for the Byzantines. They already had gunpowder and would surely continue to use it had they not ceased to exist in 1453.

Does the Byzantine Imperial Age represent before 1453, or do civs’ Imperial Ages represent different timelines?

4 Likes

By that point they were a shadow of themselves. They were mostly relevant until 1204, then it was just a small kingdom that faded away quickly.

Yes, ages aren’t exactly correlated with a period, for the Byzantines it’s when their empire was strong. The peak byzantine navy was between the 8th century (that time they BBQed an Arabic fleet in front of Constantinople) to the 11th century (losing Anatolia prevented them from getting the ingredients of greek fire).

2 Likes

Man, the naval aspect of the game is a bit of a mess. Probably due when it was made, coupled with the scarcity of images of medieval ships.

What I mean: a brief summary of medieval ships and naval combat, for anyone interested.

• The Dromon was a Roman bireme adapted to use Greek fire in addition to the battering ram/spur it used to pierce other ships. In other words, it’s a unique Byzantine variation.

• The galley/war galley was basically an evolved Roman trireme: a long, narrow boat, powered primarily by oars but with 2-3 auxiliary sails. The evolution occurs in the order of rowers, the slightly more robust hull, and the change from square to lateen sails.

The entire medieval Mediterranean used this ship until the 16th century, when it was replaced by the galleass (a larger, gunpowder-powered version) and later—through the adaptation of the carrack with the galleass—by the galleon.

• The carrack/nau/nao, unlike the galley, was a tall, sturdy boat powered by 3-4 sails and no oars, and had two castles at the bow and stern. It was designed for war and already used gunpowder, but only lasted a century (from the 15th to the 16th century) until being replaced by the galleon.

• The cog and the medieval hulk were very similar: tall, but not huge, boats with castles used in Northern Europe from the 10th century onwards, powered by one or two sails and no oars, and used primarily for trade. The cog replaced the hulk in the 14th century and lasted until the 15th century.

• The caravel is probably an adaptation of the galley and the cog and was a very fast ship built primarily for exploration and trade, not for war. It primarily used lateen sails and already had cannons.

• Finally, the galleon. It was essentially a sailing castle: huge, bristling with cannons, four or six large sails, fast and durable, larger than the carrack. However, it only emerged in the 16th century and lasted until steamships replaced it.

Before gunpowder in the 15th century, all European ships fought only by boarding others or transporting land troops. Because of this, even merchant ships could be used in war.
I can draw a picture later to illustrate the evolution of these ships, if anyone would like.

Edit: I forgot to add that (1) galleys and dromons stopped using rams/spurs during the Middle Ages, so they basically either boarded or used Greek fire, since arrows alone can’t sink a ship. And (2) only the Carrack, Caravel, and Galleon could sail the ocean.

5 Likes

Good description. It would be nice.

Do we have any evidence that every civ’s Imperial Age refers to a different time period?

I’ve always assumed the Imperial Age represents the 1453–1550 time period for every civ (excluding Three Kingdom civs). This explains why the Byzantines had full gunpowder or Goths have the Hand Cannoneer and Bombard Cannon.

And not giving some civs access to gunpowder is simply for diversifying the civs. Otherwise, it wouldn’t be fun if all the civs had access to gunpowder.

Ages never really represent Ages in AoE2. Huns died out before 500 AD yet they can get into Imperial Age. During the Attila campaign the Huns and Romans (Byzantines) can get into Imperial Age in like every mission.

Franks have Throwing Axeman from Late Antiquity next to late medieval heavy Cavalry and Cannons.

In AoE1 its arguable worse with civs being almost 2000 years apart. Sumerians are Early Bronze Age and Yamato are Early Middle Ages.

5 Likes

The Dromon was an important poart of the byzantine navy. It was key to several succesfull defences of Constantinople.

And it’s even simpler for AOE1 as we know when the Bronze Age ended and the Iron Age started. Some civs were knocked out at the end of the Bronze Age while others were insignificant or outright didn’t exist until well into the Iron Age (Rome was founded over 400 years after the Collapse, and let’s not even mention the great outlier Palmyra)

The original intended time period for AoK was c. 450 to 1450 (at least according to ES’s internal design document). It was stretched at both ends with The Conquerors, but I think that time period still roughly makes sense for a lot of civs. Trebuchets aren’t available until Imperial Age, and they were in use well before 1453.

Interpreting the ages as specific time periods doesn’t really work once you look at the details. For example, Koreans become able to build turtle ships at the same time that Vikings become able to build longboats, but in real life they were about 800 years apart. The ages mostly serve to give the impression of technological advancement through time, rather than an accurate depiction of actual history.

The Japanese Bronze Age (inasmuch as there was such a thing) was much later than the Mesopotamian Bronze Age, so that sort of makes sense. On the other hand, the Rise of Rome civs are all too late really – especially Palmyrans.

1 Like

Although it is quite simplistic, I think it is possible to capture the differences.

6 Likes

I think it’s ok. It’s better to add the unlock technology only for meso civs.

It’s terrible not to have any siege ships on water map.

An obsidian arrow ship lol

It’s a raft or canoe though. No ship.

I also hope the Native American (captured) Cannon Galleons are temporary, though the current Trebs and Onagers are actually something they never used, captured firearms would be more accurate, especially for the Inca who mastered to use those weapons (and horses) during their struggle against the Spanish. Though that would be contrary to the original design of the American civs (no gunpowder, no cavalry).

In any way, I hope Native American civs will be made more immersive in the future, if only with (optional) regional skins.

I would prefer it not be a raft, I like the generic ship aztecs had frankly in conquerors while not being historically correct did feel right.

They just got balloon galleons like the others. :grinning_face_with_smiling_eyes:

Only the Spanish actually have cannon galleons.

Barely even. If sumer died out by 3k BCE then we cant say the bronze age irl lasted 1800 years can we? This was likely still a copper/chalcolithic era. Bronze Age was until the colllapse arounf 1174bce.

So its even more nuts really

They slowly got replaced by Akkadians around 2300 BC. Ironically you play as Sumerians in the Sargon of Akkad campaign in RoR, which is technically wrong. Since the Bronze Age started like 3300 BC in the Middle East they were clearly still in the Bronze Age.

But yeah, very much before the Iron Age that started like 1200 BC in the Middle East.

I think it would be really cool to have a Bronze Age Spin-off idea.