Increase Sebastopol Mortar Range OR Damage. Because the are the most Useless Artillery in Age 3. they die fast to Falconets. they Are Slow. thats why they need a Buff
The problem is they’re not even as good as either 1 Falconet or 1 Mortar but they cost more than both combined.
At the very least they should increase the artillery multiplier from x0.25 to x0.33 or x0.5 and give them a x2 multiplier against infantry. They could also do with a cost reduction to maybe 900 influence.
That would make it about as good as 1.33 Falconets with the added flexibility of some extra range and being able to function as a Mortar.
Same for flying crow…which is even worse
Flying Crows aren’t so ridiculously overpriced at least and do end up with okay stats by age 4.
All they need is to have their pop reduced from 7 to 6 and maybe change the range progression from 18 → 23 → 28 to 20 → 24 → 28.
Fatty cannon isnt 2 falcs and when Ethiopian players realize that it bcomes apparent its role. It’s not meant to point and fire and win games on its own. Its meant to:
- use its almost no set up animation to dodge shots so micro gets more value
- fire beyond reach of falcs to soften things up
- deal with TCs, forts, towers etc which often low siege ethopia struggles into. Often from beyond range to force opponents to come out or get contained.
Again, its not 2 falcs in 1. It is a hybrid unit meant to round out the already very strong army of Ethiopia. Neftenya jav + gascenya/oromo are amazing units and this solves their weakness. If you try to musk falc a la gascenya + Sebastopol it wont work as well as musk falc, cause its not. Different civs different goals and units.
It’s slow af so it can’t get out of the way to dodge anyways. It also starts with terrible LoS so if you don’t baby it, it runs forward and dies easily.
It takes 3 shots with a Culv. 2 Falcs can tank more.
It does x0.25 vs artillery so the extra range is useless against artillery and the RoF is so slow it cancels out the extra range.
It does worse than a single Mortar which is less than half the cost. In age 3 the range is not even close to comparable to a Mortar.
It costs as much as 2 Falcs but has less than half the DPS. I don’t know why you’re presenting this very underpowered unit as some kind of counterbalance to Ethiopia’s other strong units. Ethiopia can still make Falconets and Mortars and doing so is a much better choice than making Sebastopol Mortars. Especially since Ethiopia’s cards make their Falcs above average.
You absolutely can dodge culv shots and return. Fire vs buildings but this is mirco intensive. I dont know why your stuck on comparing its anti artillery use tbh other than other artillery is better but then again, this isnt supposed to be used vs artillery. Its sole.purpose is splash damage and knocking buildings down.
Your literally locked into the falc.comparison not understanding the role of this unit. Does any civ get a mortar in age3? No, albeit china and inca/aztecs arguably do. I guess malta. Do any of these above civs come with 15- 25% stat vet beefy skirms, 1 pop very solid goon, shadowtech super cheap xbow, natives, and a very potent abun fueled powerspike? Maybe inca atm. This can come with 0 cost, backed by top tier infantry and cav early in 3. Fort in your way? No problem. Mid center TC? Need to shave some houses of germany? It works. You think every game your opponent gonna sit idly while you ship/build palace then 1k infl so you can make 2 cannons or 3? Theres no tempo for this thats critical vs infrastructure civs to stop them from taking off. Fatty cannon solves the issue of the comp skirm goon or skirm nats being weak in seige. Its not 2 falcs because ethopia with 2 falcs would just be broken france. If there is skirm goon 2 falc vs rthopisn skirm goon mortar, mortar usually wins if you can micro by anhilating skirms and then javs can swarm the cannons sinde range is . Just dont piss away the goon mass.till neftnya and cannon clean. Early 3 ofc usually euros pull ahead longer an age goes. Also dont forget you can have darood back you up. Its like how cav archers or organs and gats differ, not everything is meant to be 1 to 1 same role.
Late game it might be costed to high ill agree, maybe 800inf. But watch high level play and youll see its clearly not weak based on stats or pop space, or underpowered in its role. Its just again not 2 falcs. Stop trying to use it like 2 falcs and maybe spend the 1k influence on sennar (which everyone forgets) or time it a bit slower to pair with darood or culvs.
Culvs have 34 range. Sebastopol has 28-30. There’s no way you could run and hit back. And even if you did, the Mortar does next to no damage against them.
Whoever wins a Falc war gains a huge advantage. Sebastopols have literally no chance of beating 2 Falcs.
It’s Ethiopia’s equivalent to the 2 Falcs shipment in age 3 so it’s the obvious comparison. It also costs as much as 2 Falcs (or more than a Falc and Mortar) yet it’s DPS is less than a single Falconet or Mortar.
Practically all of them. The card Advanced Artillery enables them, and equivalent units like Hand Mortars and Arrow Knights are available then. You’re also very disingenuous in saying Sebastopol Mortars are an age 3 Mortar. At that point they only have 28 range which is only 2 more than a Falc and their DPS is about the same as a single Mortar.
None of this has anything to do with whether or not the Mortar is underpowered. The very overpowered parts of Ethiopia should be merged and the very underpowered parts like Sebastopol Mortars should be buffed.
It is worse than a single Falc. So you can build a Palace and train a Falc and still be ahead.
This mentality is why so many people fail with ethopia. its not 2 falcs. its not designed as such, stop trying to make it 2 falcs. Ethopia is not france, its not spain or otto, and does not follow the same logic. you wanna cannon duel with those civs, then you loose. you tech into oromo, neftenya, javs and natives plus this youll win.
and when Adv artillery ships a mortar, let me know. until then, it exists purely to troll back fort trollers or meme your own tempo to death.
a range 28, heavy splash and better vs buildings cannon is great value for your army. if you only z move cannons all day, then you probably are better off to ship influence and have that option. It is being used in part of a composition that is the sum of its parts. if you fail to utilize that, that is the players fault not the cannons. Again, if you find 0 value or legit not trolling and think a 1 falc taking an entire 2 minutes longer to pop (tech plus inf shipment plus train time) then I dont know what to say. I highly recomend you watch some more games at the higher level, even mid level hihi smurf is showcasing this alot. The value of the dancing (no set up animation) high hp sort falc sort of mortar in early age3 cannot be understated by those who understand its use. when used in conjuction of the rest of ehtopias options (abuns healing, fast musk, top tier skirm, great cav options, plus w/e nat they ship/age up/on map. You make this thing beat falcs euro civs are just completly dead and its op. its stats are probably good cost, and again, you dont want to invest in the apm and timings for it ship 1k influence. thats the point of flexibility, you dont like it do something else. doesnt mean its not good.
But late game there is arguement for it to be a bit cheaper influence cost prehaps, but late game ethopia is already pretty strong tbh and thats a whole other disucssion.
No one is saying it is in any way the same role as 2 Falcs. Stop it with your strawman argument.
It does however cost 1000 resources just like 2 Falcs and is shipped at the same point in the game as a standard Falc shipment. So while it’s role may be different, its value should be roughly comparable.
A more apt comparison would be between 1 Falc and 1 Mortar, but that doesn’t exist as a shipment. But Sebastopol Mortar is so bad it falls short of a single Falc or Mortar.
50 dps vs inf, 25 dps vs cav, 12.5 dps vs art
100 dps vs buildings 125 dps vs walls
75 dps vs inf, 25 dps vs cav, 25 dps vs art
50 dps vs buildings
83.3 dps vs buildings 104.2 dps vs walls
To even be close to reasonable for it’s cost, it should be more comparable to a Heavy Cannon, not worse than a single Falconet or Mortar.
Improving its multipliers to x0.33 vs artillery and x2 vs infantry and reducing its cost to 900 would be a reasonable way to make it functional. That would make it more in line with other uber artillery like Heavy Cannons. Not weaker than a single Falconet or Mortar.
You know it and mortars are supposed to be doing extra now vs walls right? it got the extra that all mortar types did a few patches ago. unless it is bugged.
Your own math shows how its better in ways too. 2.25ishx the health (i guess my tank argument didn’t matter to you cause the ability to tank a shot or 2 for your mass isn’t how you play it?). It has the DPS 4x that of a falc, so 2x the eq building damage of 2falcs for 80% the pop. not so bad now is it? Oh, and it contributes to the fight at 50% the dps of falcs vs infantry? wow by that, the avg dps is the exact same as 2 falcs vs infantry and buildings if equal time spent tasked to each with 2 less pop and more health. Also missing, tbf hard to math stuff, like no splash (aoe4/8 vs 3) math included, no lack of set up which is hard to quantify and requires the player to actually micro it since you need to maximize splash, tanking, and dodging as needed. Luckily javs neftenya and now xbow are pretty micro friendly so this isnt that difficult but is another apm tax worth consideration, compared to falcs which other than when to set up usually do their thing w/out too much fuss.
Seems pretty good for a age3 shipment. for age4, the math might shift here but generally having 16pop of them (2x shipment) is better than shipping 2hvy cannons vs buildings, or 2 mortars and 2 falcs which is far more res and more pop and risks getting caught out (mortars tickle infantry so 5 musk wipe them still, less range on falcs and slow set up time making them less optimal)
7 hand cannons is not 1k res, yet pretty good shipment because the culv mortar synergizes with china cav skirm or skim chaff design. 1 maltese bigboi also less res and dps than 2 falcs yet has other traits and buys time for malta to catch up, so good malta players use it because it adds such as range, hp, annoyance, etc. to defending even if res to res, 1k coin into falcs is better. It would appear Cannons/equivalent for civ shipments had utility besides 2 armies just attacking moving into each other, no? This is much harder to quantify ofc, but is my point- you’re missing the entire point of the cannon. its a hybrid unit which is supposed to be a bit more inefficient than the replacement units it takes from but can do things said replacement unit cant do as well. its better than 2 falcs anti building, far better vs infantry than mortars per pop. In return you get utility and in this case, earlier anti building for less anti infantry that in tandem works to help the already strong ethopian mass (seriously if you die to skirms in age3, thats 100% on ethopian player) in age3, and sometimes in age4 (shadowtech) to be able to mix and match its strengths.
Math checks out for me, but then i gotta ask: do you play mostly 1v1s? cause this is where i am basing it. if this is a team or treaty ffa etc issue, im willing to accept that it might be crappy there where you cn combo or specialize comps. but based on common 1v1, for a age3 cannon it certainly fits the bill. the price can shift to make them or for age4/5 costs etc, but stats i think i summarized why its balanced compared to 2 falcs if not better in supremacy 1v1. if you want age4 mortars and falcs separate, well play euro civ and FI every game.
Lastly, not sure how to rate it vs heavies cause thats another thing and age4 based, and arguably euro heavies are supposed to overperform vs non euro cannons/anti artillery since other civs tend to have stronger units. Key word “tend”
Fixed now. It has a building multi that I forgot to stack. It actually has lower base attack than Mortars but has a multiplier for some reason. Also way less range initially.
2 Falcs tank more Culv shots, and a battle of 2 Falcs vs 1 Sebastopol with end with 2 Falcs still standing. Those are going to be your biggest threats.
Double the cost for 50% more damage is not a good deal. You need to actually win vs an opponent’s army before you can safely siege, and doing 1/3 the damage in fights doesn’t get you there.
That costs 1900 resources and has far more dps and total health. Two Sebastopols costs 2000 resources.
It’s 980, you’re being pedantic.
And lots of people complain that it’s an underpowered shipment.
Sebastopol Mortars are also Age 4 units. They should absolutely be comparable at least after the age 4 shadow tech.
At the very least Sebastopol Mortars need x0.33 vs artillery and x1.5 vs infantry so it can equal one single Falconet. And a cost reduction to ~900.
for cost, you forgot shadowteching vs 500 res upgrades but sure its the same when you forget these things.
for the culv shots, its the same if you have even 1 abun unless you get 3 shotted, also for the last time learn to move your cannons you got no set up animation and can time shots to miss, while i get this is hard its absolutely why they nerfed the hp to 475 cause this fat turd could dodge all day in the hands of a skilled player.
I dont know a single player who complains malta cannon the shipment is bad since rework but they did nerf it recently. also its in every deck so clearly not that bad. Maybe im just numb cause i played ports and had 2 turd organs for 10+ years tho XD.
I think this is where you simply, refuse to even understand the concept of flexiblity over raw dps
do you not understand why range 28, then 30(34 seige in age4 btw) makes happen? do you fail to understand the most basic principle of aggresive use of a sebastpol mortar? you either siege the opponent, or they have to come out and play tag with the moving fat cannon exposing their army. You now can retreat and kite or see your mass is bigger and fight. all while taking map and letting ehtopia suck every coin mine dry. so you get a 4x more effective falc in age3 vs buildings that is outside the range of TC/fort/falc fire then then contributes to the fight the eq of half a falc, or something like 4x that of a mortar vs infantry. if you use both sides, its just as valuable if not more since again, less res spent and mortars aren’t available in age3 anyway in a normal game.
Now let me ask again, do you play 1v1? this entire argument of mortar/falc better seems like your only lenses is age4 based combo of mortar/falc combo or monocomps, both which are more effective when in team or treaty. in a normal 1v1 game, utility is more value and here for the last time, its not a 2 falc. its an early mortar that seiges better than 2 falcs and kills infantry better than 2 mortars, but not as specialized.
Also its not stat as a age4 unit, its more like the crow (another subpar cannon to balance how good china is without it). but fwiw its imperial stats are mortar range which furhter cements the idea, its not supposed to be heavy cannon in use.
So i dont know what else to say besides get better at using the cannon and accept its not meant to kill cannons or keep being upset when using it to fight 2 falc pushes and its targeting their falcs instead of infantry. if you cant make a dancing age3 mortar work for a strong unit civ, ok then ship 1k influence and 2+ falc someone and hope the tempo loss equals out. I’ll take my sub 9min 2x better than 2 falcs mortar vs buildings and decent anti infantry gun that can dodge shots and seige forts or tc safely that either force them to make culvs (denying them tempo cept CA mexico), loose map control, or causing them to come into the open and play with my jav/light infantry+ cav army that can deal with both falc musk or skirm goon just fine as is. you do you chief. But if you try to use it like the above and not a counter to 2 falc shipments, you might find its pretty good when you use it to swap between seiging and then contributing during the big fight.
i think they just must create statistics for 1v1 and statistics for 4vs4, otherwise is really hard to balance the game
I did not. You ignore the fact that Ethiopian Falcs also shadow tech.
Apologies, I missed the x2 multiplier against buildings that Falcs have. So when it comes to sieging, Sebastopol Mortars are actually only on par with 2 Falcs. Not twice as good as you stated above, although that’s my fault for providing incorrect information.
So with that in mind, the only advantage a Sebastopol Mortar has over 2 Falcs is 2 more range. It has the same siege, 1/3rd the attack vs units, and slower RoF and limber speed. You seem to argue that it’s also more maneuverable in bombard mode, but it also slows your entire army down when on the move because it lacks limber mode, so that’s not entirely an advantage.
With the above correction, no it doesn’t actually siege better than 2 Falcs, and nearly every unit kills infantry better than 2 Mortars so I don’t even know why you mention that.
I play both 1v1 and teams and the Mortar sucks in both. In 1v1 you just have to make the age 3 shipment work because there’s no good alternative and Ethiopia’s other strengths help compensate for it. In team games and age 4 it’s so bad that you should never ever consider using it over 1 Falc and 1 Mortar.
It’s just objectively underpowered and you’re being disingenuous to say it’s not.
so i went and check the maths directly cause i think you are getting confused cause you still messed up the maths here chief.
a falc does 100x 2 vs buildings seige attack 1 type so easy to follow. 2 falcs would do 400 damage. This is the base damage of the seige attack of the seb mortar. Sebastopol does 400 base vs buildings (its seige attack separate from base attack) x1.5 vs buildings for 600 total damage vs buildings.
its worth effectively 3 falcs, plus the mobility and extra range compared to falcs. its 3 falc worth of seige. until the 4th shot, in which case 2 falcs could do equal damage due to faster firing times (falc 4 vs seb mortar 6). for reference vs buildings. both do 1200 damage. if you get a 4th shot off by the falcs, you pull ahead in damage till the 6th shot and that pattern repeats. Given hp of buildings, this is only important vs TCs as forts or TCs will have likely damaged or killed falcs whereas the fatty cannon is even better.
also checking both maths including mine i made an error about culvs: 475 hp is 4 culv shots to kill, 6 hp healed to make it 5 shots to die. compare vs falcs who basically get 2 tapped by culvs with little defense since only 1x abun heal allowed. As for fat cannons v mortars, vs buildings its 600 of one per volley vs 500 per mortar so 2 morar it does 60% damage. vs units fat cannon does 500% more damage than 2 mortar
so you got a cannon thats worth compared to 2 falcs:
vs infantry: 300 vs 300 per falc 50% and loosing value over time due to slower fire rate.
vs buildings: 150% till 12s then breaks even. vs walls its something like 225% and always better fwiw.
vs ships its worth less than 50% of 2 falcs.
it does this for 8 pop so add 20% efficiency its almost once more worth extra 2 falcs (1.8) vs buildings and less bad vs units (60%) given its the same res cost atm. this is before we consider somethings you consistently dodge acknowledging it has over 2falcs: range, aoe which scales in age, more hp, better handling, no needing 150inf and a palace to unlock and train off the top of my head.
VS 2 mortars: same pop and res is 11% more expensive fwiw.
vs buildings: it does 60% damage
VS units: 500% more
With 11% tax its roughly 54% damage, and 450% better vs infantry. also less range in age4 than mortar but even in age5, but some other x factors is the longer range vs falcs, more aoe on shots, and extra vs walls again in age4.
Every scenario you’ve given why these stats wont count is because you get pushed by 2 falcs and ship this thinking its eq to 2 falcs in its use to defend and fail. The design of this unit was not to be defending your base vs 2 falc heavy infantry pushes- infact id rather do a 630ff fort and falcs or culvs of my own here. that is not the purpose of the Sevastopol to defend a spanish or otto FF. no, its to go on the offence vs defensive civs like ports, malta, and especially inca. here all the utility of extra range, better vs buildings, and ability to move is far more important than trying to use it under your TC. If you use it properly, youll find its not so bad. try using vs more passive civs as its deisgn, and youll find the combo stats making it much effectively next time
you can but you basically need like top 20 level micro to achieve it. once the culv has locked on and fired its actually locked onto the spot not the unit itself so if you can move out of that spot it basically misses
you also don’t need to fire back at the culv you just do your own thing really.
Nope, Sebastopol does the exact same siege dps as 2 Falcs. They have different RoF, that’s why I presented it as dps and not base attack.
2 Falcs: (100 x 2 x 2)/4 = 100
1 Sebastopol: (400 x 1.5)/6 = 100
You kind of get this but still your numbers are all wrong. 2 Falcs would briefly pull ahead after their second shot, and 3 Falcs would always be better.
I’m not denying this, it’s just laughable that this is your selling point for the unit. A single Musketeer does more damage than a Mortar. 500% of basically nothing is still pathetic.
Not relavent for almost everyone.
Fair point, but it’s also only available once by shipment before age 4 and is so massively overpriced that paying 650 for the first Falc is still a better deal.
My point is that other than the range, 2 Falcs do that job just as well and can be effectively used to defend or take a battle in the field. The movement is also not great because it’s so slow in transport that you have to ship it to a forward base to even get it to the enemy.
Your only viable scenarios are ones where you are essentially already winning against a turtle civ. That indicates it’s an underpowered unit. All I’m asking is to make it at least as effective as a single Falconet versus infantry and artillery. That’s still massively underpowered in that role.
ffs dude other than their range huaraca are as good as AK vs cannons? Range is best stat a cannon can have.
its not top 20 micro more like top 200, tbh anyone can if they focus on it which at lower elos is doable since macro can slack a bit. timing is everything and even if you dodge only 1 that’s huge.
You refuse to use this thing for its strengths and call it underpowered. range, utility, hp the shots btw are better
and tempo in a game. and ignore my math correcting your math and ofc the failure to understand where its better. this is 100% player lack of skill not the cannon being undervalued. you can cope and get angry all you want at my points, but they still stand: its not a falc, make falcs if you dont plan on using it for what its worth. if i use a light cannon vs buildings and complain its not a captured mortar, is the light cannon bad? no its a 3 in 1. that’s worse than euro eq for anti cannon, anti infantry, anti building. but the combined use synergizes well if the player is smart enough to use it both role. all youve done is shown complete unwillingness to use it as a mortar first, long range falc 2nd. thankfully, devs gave you a easy answer in falcs so use falcs ig and be mad you cant use the cannon properly but id hope you will someday learn more game skills and use it and realize its worth. it was OP on launch because it did the falc job too well btw, and now it being balanced and require i guess game knowledge has made it to you un favorable. nothing else i think can stand since you fail to understand or try and use properly the unit you want buffed.
Are you seriously equating these things? AKs have 18 more range than Huaracas. Sebastopols have 2 more than Falcs.
Because you were wrong.
Skil has nothing to do with in. It performs worse than an equivalent unit that costs half as much. If that’s not underpowered than I don’t know what is. Your only examples of its use case are relying on Ethiopia’s other strengths to be in a winning position and then using the pitiful Mortar to deliver a death blow.