We Need to Talk About Sebastopol Mortar

[SnowLynx2]

@M00Z1LLA

Also keep in mind that Great Bombards do get better comparatively in age 5 and have cards and techs (+15% health and attack, and -1 pop) that improve them more while Sebastopols just get an AoE boost and a little more health from cards.

I forgot to take the age 5 upgrade into account. I thought the SM got +175 attack in age 5 to make up for it scaling off of age 3 stats but I guess that is only for the building attack. I guess it would need +37.5 attack in age 5 to have the same dps vs infantry in age 5 as an uncarded Bombard.

The SM does get 5% attack from a Jesuit alliance tech and 5% hp/attack from an Oromo alliance tech as well as the passive healing from the age 4 card which is hard to quantify.

@M00Z1LLA

That doesn’t address that the age 3 shipment would be overtly worse than 1000 resources. I’d much prefer a slight stats buff to justify the cost, and if that needs to come with nerfs to other areas to keep it balanced that is fine.

I don’t think a shipment has to be 1k res or even above 900 res to have decent utility as an age 3 shipment. Just to name a few shipments, 2 flaming arrows is only 800 res and 2 gatling guns is only 700 res while both are considerably worse both buildings. There are situations where people send those shipments. 8 regulars is only 840 resources and people send that. 4 mamelukes only gives net 600 coin worth of value and it is still a really good age 3 merc shipment. If the cost of the SM got taken down to 900 or even 850 it would still be more resource value than all these shipments that are still used in age 3.

I think in age 3 utility matter more than the cost. If it cost 100 influence but had good utility, it would be a good age 3 shipment. If it cost 10,000 influence but had bad utility it would be a bad shipment. For my purposes of sieging buildings with some anti-infantry capabilities, I think it has decent utility.

@M00Z1LLA

x1.5 vs infantry (from x1)
x0.33 vs artillery (from x0.25)
+2 LoS in age 3 (increase from 30 to 32)
maybe drop the cost to 900 resources (from 1000)

I did not realize the los was that low. I think it does make sense to buff it in age 3 by +2. Flaming arrows and siege elephants both have 34 los with the same range so 32 los probably wouldn’t be game breaking. It would also mean in age 5 it would have the same los as a mortar which would be neat.

I think giving it 1.5x vs infantry would be too much. In age 4 it would have more dps vs infantry than every other heavy artillery except the original heavy cannon where it would only have 6% less damage while being 88% better vs buildings and having more potential aoe. It would make the SM the second best heavy cannon vs infantry while being the best vs buildings and having more range. I think that is too many perks for a heavy artillery unit especially if it is coupled with a cost decrease. Maybe if the building damage got nerfed the infantry damage could be buffed but I personally like the design of having higher building damage.

Maybe the unit could get +50 infantry damage in age 5 in the same way it gets +175 building damage so that it could keep up with the dps of the great bombard in age 5 coupled with a cost decrease (accompanied with some treaty nerfs)

[AnghusKhan]

@SnowLynx2

4 mamelukes only gives net 600 coin worth of value and it is still a really good age 3 merc shipment

Mamelukes are an age-4-restricted unit though, and not like Landsknecht who receive negative stat multipliers when received an age early. This means they’re basically Guard status which is extra value over the stated res (1.5x to be precise).

EDIT: Don’t know why this is tagged as a response to plat and not lynx, apologies.

[SnowLynx2]

Good point it probably was not the best example to include. Though there are plenty of other age 3 shipments that are 900 res or less like 5 goons, 9 musk, 7 skirms that people use that I don’t think it would be out of line for an age 3 shipment value if its cost was 900 influence.

[platypus_slayer1]

Np mate it happens

@SnowLynx2

age 3 shipments that are 900 res or less

In general unit shipments are slightly under valued to crates to have it be a trade off of tempo vs raw res. 2x falc 3x organ and rolling art being the exception, then mercs are their own catagory but the no investment ones are “usually” pegged to under 700 value in age2, 1k in age3, and 1600 on age4. Emphasis of usually.

Out of all the talk of Sevastopol mortar changes i think reducing the infl cost to 900 wouldn’t be to bad. Usually in 1v1 ethopia can sustain mass influence until late game where their eco and army can overwhelm so teching monastaries sending cows and maybe TP still limits spammability. 900inf paired with thr infinte 1600 crate could have synergy when MM sent to 50/50 or you got a trade line and somali techs.

Small changes of value imho allows the current balance to stay of unit power in 1v1 or treaty while getting some more opportunities to use it in teams or much longer games vs say malta where the utility of this would be great

[OriginalKnot717]

I’d like to see them get +2 LOS in age 3, cost reduced to 900 influence and after sending the shipment allow them to be trained. They’re prohibitively expensive in age 3 where you lack a lot of influence but at least if you could train them you could replace it if it’s killed but still be unable to mass them, curently if you lose your 1 mortar then you’ll often lose them game and people know that because ethiopia lacks high siege units so people often sacrifice units just to kill the mortar as once it’s gone that’s it.

[M00Z1LLA]

@SnowLynx2

I don’t think a shipment has to be 1k res or even above 900 res to have decent utility as an age 3 shipment.

True, but you’re comparing it to Great Bombards which are 700 resources. I think that’s pushing it for what’s acceptable for an age 3 shipment.

@SnowLynx2

2 flaming arrows is only 800 res and 2 gatling guns is only 700 res while both are considerably worse both buildings. There are situations where people send those shipments. 8 regulars is only 840 resources and people send that.

2 Flaming Arrows can be sent twice and 2 Gats comes after first sending 3 of them. Generally, multiple send cards are not the full value of one time cards.

@OriginalKnot717

cost reduced to 900 influence and after sending the shipment allow them to be trained

Even just being able to send the card twice would be good enough. Ethiopia already has cards like Prize Bull that can be sent twice so it wouldn’t be unusual.

@SnowLynx2

I did not realize the los was that low. I think it does make sense to buff it in age 3 by +2. Flaming arrows and siege elephants both have 34 los with the same range so 32 los probably wouldn’t be game breaking. It would also mean in age 5 it would have the same los as a mortar which would be neat.

I’m mainly concerned with the LoS keeping up with the range of the anti-unit attack. If the age 5 LoS remained at 42 and it progressed from 32 → 37 → 42 that’s perfectly fine. LoS for artillery is generally range + 4 so they don’t screw around chasing units that are on the edge of their LoS. With the anti-building attack, it’s not so important since they’re static.

@SnowLynx2

I think giving it 1.5x vs infantry would be too much. In age 4 it would have more dps vs infantry than every other heavy artillery except the original heavy cannon where it would only have 6% less damage while being 88% better vs buildings and having more potential aoe.

Li’l Bombards still exceed that infantry damage in age 4. And keep in mind that Great Bombards are 70% the cost and Rockets are 60% the cost. Rockets are only 22.5 damage behind a Sebastopol with x1.5 vs infantry in age 4 and surpass them in age 5 despite costing only 60% as much. Yeah, Sebastapols have the extra siege damage and range, but you are paying for it with the extra 400 resources they cost and other drawbacks like low dps versus cavalry and artillery.

@SnowLynx2

Maybe the unit could get +50 infantry damage in age 5 in the same way it gets +175 building damage so that it could keep up with the dps of the great bombard in age 5 coupled with a cost decrease (accompanied with some treaty nerfs)

I don’t think they actually get any extra base attack. It ends up at 700 which is 400 x 1.75. That’s consistent with the 25% and 50% upgrades from each age.

Ultimately I’d like to see it with buffs like this:

LoS: 32 → 37 → 42
x0.33 vs Artillery
x1.5 vs Infantry
Cost 900

That would make it pretty good against buildings and infantry but still more vulnerable to Culvs and cavalry than most other cannons. If that’s a tad too strong, maybe shave off like 5 health so it’s a bit more tricky to get healed up with an Abun to tank an extra Culv shot.

An alternative approach could be to make the explosive shot mode effectively an anti-infantry mode. Maybe I’m not understanding it properly, but to me it seems to be as useless as trample mode. You get 80% lower damage in exchange for double the AoE. It looks like it lacks the x0.5 vs cavalry, but it’s still 60% worse for that best case.

The bombard attack could be left with no infantry multiplier (just improve the artillery one to x0.33), and the explosive shot attack could get a x6 vs infantry and maybe only a x0.67 vs artillery. That would make it have 20% more dps to infantry and double AoE at the expense of being 60% worse against everything else.

[AnghusKhan]

@M00Z1LLA

An alternative approach could be to make the explosive shot mode effectively an anti-infantry mode. Maybe I’m not understanding it properly, but to me it seems to be as useless as trample mode. You get 80% lower damage in exchange for double the AoE.

Yeah this is the biggest in-game case for AoE damage caps to be represented on unit cards. They dictate so much of whether the AoE damage dealt actually means anything it’s insane.