Weird though about the condos

Age of Empires II: DE II - Discussion
1

So the other day, in another topic related to the Italians, it came out that a lot would have liked a general buff of this unit.

In my opinion, all together this unit isn’t that bad, the problem is that it doesn’t have a purpose, since it doesn’t shine in any context.
The anti-gunpowder role is rare, and even when you are against gunpowder, there are cheaper way to counter it (like skirms for HC and hussars for BBC).
I water maps like islands can be used for landings, maybe by sneaking a vill and building some barracks, and here they have the advantages of not requiring upgrades (except for blacksmith ones), but even here, it’s enaugh that the enemy is a bit prepared with some archer or some knights (castle age units are enough) and it becomes a waste of resources.
So is left only the option of a fast imp into condos, well, there is a small chance that it may works if you are able to surprise your opponent, but onestly, in my opinion, both Italians and their allies have better options than the condos.

So, one way to buff them, would be to give them back at least some of their old stats, like for example 1 base pierce armor (making them a weaker version of an huskarl/eagles).

But the my idea is the following: unlock the access to condos for Italians and their allies in castle age.
So I know that at first it could seem OP, condos have 80HP and 1MA (which is more than a champion) and it’s fast (but less than a eagle or an huskarl), but they also have only 9 attack, which is the same of a long swordman (a castle age unit) and no bonus damage (except for gunpowder and +2 vs buildings, which is half of a LS).

In my opinion, this small change could really incentive people to use the condos, especially in team games, when the Italians are allied with a good infantry civ, that way they would have the possibility to use in castle age a unit just a bit more powerful than a LS, which can be combined with other civs bonus, without the need to wait to build a castle and go for their more powerful UU.

2

The most impactfull on non-use of Condos is in my opinion not their stats but their cost. And in castle, players will not be making unit wich cost almost as much food as Knight, what is stronger and faster, even without Bloodlines and Husbandry. For American civs also Condo will see no use, because better for eco will be go Eagles.

The best buff for Condos is change cost of this Unit. Especialy change balance between food and gold. This will make viable strat FastImp to Condos again, because Italians will be able to go up even faster and with even weaker Eco and afford making many of them. For team games this will mean players can have less food eco to make them, and this mean more trade.
Giving them back 1PA and additional bonus vs Eagles will be also nice. They will be good for infantry civs with chasing Eagles, what is trouble for them now.

Summary, my propositions:

  • +1PA
  • Being affecting by Pavise
  • +4 vs Eagles
  • change cost to 10F 55G
1 Like
3

True, but I thought more about the civs which have some strong infantry bonus, like goth, who could start training condos before huskarls (of course at some point they would want to transition into their UU, but a fast castle into condos for them it could be a good strategy), others could be japs, burmese, celts. Also, consider that the surprise effect would be indirectly buffed.

Those aren’t bad suggestions at all, but I think that my idea is easier to implement, because a lot of people don’t want to see its stats directly buffed.

4

Buff HC instead so naturally condos become more important.

2 Likes
5

Even if you buff the HC, why use condos instead of skirms? Skirms can fight them at range and they are a lot more cost effective being a trash unit.

6

All of civs you mention play Knights in Castle. Even Goth or Celt. Simply its the best unit in this age.
Of course, surprise factor can be decent, but im afraid Condos in Castle can be more broken than you think. They dont have easy counter, they train much faster than Knights, and player will have Barracks anyway, especialy Italians, they sometimes dont even dont make Stables.
For TG, on the other hand, is better to go Knights, because they have superior stats and team-mate can care of pikes with archers.
So your concept is basicly useless for TG, but is broken for single - because it will be extremly easy to go Archers as Italians and imedietly in Castle add fast creating Condos as backup.

7

Goth could, but then they would have a weird transition, instead they could go for a fast castle into 30% cheaper condos (with free arson) trained 20% faster, it would be a lot more faster than going directly for huskarls and more powerful than using LS (it’s still a unit with 80HP). Then they could more easily and naturally transition into huskarls/champions (they would have to grap only infantry related tech, not bloodlines or cavalry armor).

Celts lack bloodlines, so having a fast moving infantry that train fast and have 80HP in castle isn’t that bad.

Japs and burmese’s with their attack buff would basically have the equivalent of a 2HS in castle age, who also is faster.

Plus, all infantry civs with a powerful infantry UU could instead open with condos, since it wouldn’t require a castle,then transition into their UU, since all the blacksmith upgrades would be the same. Let’s not forget that condos after are a imperial age units, so having it in castle age could be a huge buff, especially for some civs.

Let’s not also forget that if Italians get the buff that they need, they could support the allies condos with xbows and GC.
Mine was a buff intended for team games.

8

But how can you counter that?
Against Archers you can make Skirms or Knights, Agains Knights you can go Camels or Pikes (only civ without Pike has Camel).
Against Condos in Castle you will be forced to go Knights, even if you dont want to. XBow is decent vs them, but not great, because Condo is fast, and can be masst much easier than Knights. Has TT 66% of TT Knight or XBow.

This concept is broken, in one way or other. Can be useless, because of Condos price, or OP, because of their stats.

9

Some civs have bad skirms. Condos as a team unit can always help those in these match ups where bad skirms would not cut it against buffed HC anymore (of course skirls should still be a counter but condos could become the harder counter for some civs)

10

Well, both knights and xbows counter them, even LS counter them cost effective, the strength of this tactic is that you can’t counter it with trash, but if a player is well prepared he can fight off the attack.

About 2 of them (turks and burmese) all other civs are fine.

A situational unit that counter another situational unit, personally, even if my civ has bad skirms I wouldn’t choose italians as a ally just for condos.

Well, we could tweak it around here and there, but I don’t think it’s that OP, consider that it would require both Italian and a suitable infantry civ (there are like 4 of them out of 35 civs), of course this would require testing.

11

Condos are very difficult to balance:

  • they are a team unit
  • they belong to a civ which need to be buffed, but in another way

Personally, either you introduce an elito condo upgrade or a better team mechanics.

12

Elite condo is clear, you nerf the current condo and introduce an elite condo stronger than the current one. However this is too difficult to balance since condos from infantry civs nay become to strong.

Another option is to reduce the cost, especially in terms of gold, giving a bonus vs eagles and remove champions from italians. This way it will be the italian champion.

For a team mechanics, well, it is more difficult. I would say that condos, being italian mercenaries, can return part of their gold cost to the italian player.

Say, when a condo dies, 15g are returned to the italian player. Not sure if this is enough to make them viable.

13

Buff long swordsman instead so HC becomes more important therefore condos become more important

2 Likes
14

Buff eagles instead, so longsword becomes more important, HC becomes more important, and condo becomes more important 11

Actually, jokes apart, I agree with @Szebo210 that the part of the problem is that infantry is underused…

3 Likes
15

Access in castle age is a good idea. But then I won’t give them 1 pierce armor. They would be too strong, they are much faster than LS.

In combination with Goth or Japanese they will be awful strong. In Teamgames there would be necessarily to balance them for this situation.

17

However I would wait to buff condos since they belong to a civ needing special attention.

Let us see how (and if) italians will be buffed. Free archer armor + reduce TT of GC? other things? no buffs?

Condos are a further problem…

18

Condos were grollsy op at first and in HD times got nerfed because a fast imp condo strats was close to unbeatable.

You didn’t need to tech up and the unit used to be just better than champios with better stats than now and faster speed and no upgrade costs.

I think putting the unit with is current stats into castle age sounds a bit op to me.

Longsword buff + HC buff since both are underused which in the end results in more HC to counter for condos.

HC +5 HP and +5% accuracy
Longsword +5HP, also two handed swordsmen and cheaper upgrade cost in food for longsword, and two handed swordsmen (not champion and m@a),
forced levy increased cost by the amount the two infantry upgrades got cheaper.

19

Just an idea coming to my mind… what if it becomes a total alternative to champions?

So, instead of researching 2hs/champion, you research the “condottiero” tech, upgrading your infantry to condos. This way, condos would cost as champions, and should get a small stat buff (maybe +1PA, for sure attack bonus vs eagles and extra attack in general).

This is something more similar to the imperial skirm. Basically Italians team bonus is just a better champion upgrade.

Special comments:

  • are malay (food only) and bulgarians (free upgrade + extra armor) broken? In team games, where non-infantry unit dominate, maybe they are not. If you think so, make the condo upgrade accessible only to civs having champion
  • you can give it for free to italians if you like (unnecessary imo, italians need other buffs)
20

Ok, the discussion get out of hand, my question was simple, what if we move condo to castle age?
I get it that some of you have other idea on how to buff them, or idea on how to buff other units, or how to buff Italians, but that goes beyond the original purpose of this topics, and there are other topics where to continue those topics.

My idea was simple, move the unit as it is in castle. I had this idea when looking at condos stats, yes they are tanky with their 80HP, but their attack and armor are more similar to that of a LS, that why to me, it unit which is a middle ground between castle and imp.
That’s why I thought of this buff, in imp their unit would still keep their anti gunpowder role, but in castle a condo rush could finally be viable.

I also don’t like the idea of making and elite condo upgrade, since it negate the only decent aspect of the unit (no upgrades required), so what about this:

  • Condos are moved in castle, but they lose 10HP, the 1 base MA (maybe even 1 attack) , then, when the player hit imp, they are automatically upgraded to their standard stats (maybe even gain 1 PA) without any upgrades has to be researched, that way, they keep their main distinctive characteristic.
21

I may be stupid. The best way to have it balanced is giving the exact current champion stats and bonuses (vs eagles and building) + the speed and the attack/armor bonus of condos.

Italian team bonus (i.e., access to “condo” upgrade) would ensure:

  • you research faster the upgrade (just one condo upgrade instead 2hs+champion)
  • if you are not vs gunpowder, just extra speed
  • if you are vs gunpowder, your infantry is more resistant (basically it works as the current condo)