Yeah, they still seem strong in isolation, like I said, but what 5 civs would you say are weaker than them? (if we include both land and water maps).
Welp, he definitely should if he wants to make it a series (he already did Lith drush and Cuman double TC boom, even tho it’s outdated now), and because the Malay bonus is one of the hardest to use, so most players would appreciate the help.
I’d say
Tatars
Byzantines
Turks
Goths
Teutons - I know they were just buffed, but they’re still slow & have one of the most niche UUs, bad trash, bad navy.
possibly Magyars in 6th.
I’m a bit surprised. They are versatile, have bonuses for men at arms, scout and archer rushes, have a strong knight rush, and in late game have a wide array of units to chose from. Their eco sin’t super fast, but it’s definitely more middle tier than bottom.
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Yeah, that’s why I wasn’t clear to commit them to 6th place, and it’s probably influenced by my playstyle. They just seem like one of the less impressive civs in Imp since most of their bonuses are temporary. At the end of the day, they have a solid stable and great cav archers, but it’s hard not to regard them as perhaps a more lackluster variation on Berbers or Huns. So I’m not going to claim that my viewpoint on this is objective, they may well be solidly mid tier, I honestly don’t play them much.
Btw I’m surprised Berbers aren’t more popular. One of the most complete tech trees and killer knight rush, as well as villagers that can flee better. I would like to say that my 3 ranked games as Berbers would give me enough experience to answer, but each time I killed the enemy with archer rushes…
Yeah, definitely an underrated civ. Getting a discount on the strongest (generic) Castle Age unit is no joke, and IIRC even in Imp their Cavs trade cost-effectively vs FU Paladins. The lack of a clear early eco bonus is the only thing that stops them from being in the top 5.
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At this point, i don’t know if there are 5 bads civ. You have one a lot decent civs, and broken persians (and broken Mongols?).
I love Burmese! Yeah, their elephantos are as good as khmer (there are both classify as elephants civs), but they’re almos inmune to arrows, and they have the advantage of getting Faith 50%, so that’s enough I think. Plus, they have amazing infantry, and when I play with them, I always get at least 3 relics. I think all their bonuses are amazing.
And Magyars… Let’s put it this way: the almost don’t get economic bonus, yet they’re an amazing civ. They do everything well. Men at arms, cavalry, archers into crossbow, and have the best CA of the game. And you’re inmune to wolves!
At this point, bad civs are only the tartars. Mediocre one, Teutons, goths and Portuguese, altough Portuguese are better in water. Yeah, Byzantines and Koreans could get some extra buff, but not bads civs. And italians are not good land, bur they’re the meta on water… So, there you go. One bad civ. One mediocre one very one dimensional and a few that could get a little better
Welp, when Viper says that there are only 33 better civs than Tatars, I’m 100% sure Portuguese are the “only 34 better civs” guys. Tatars have an early eco bonus, Portuguese do not (the gold discount isn’t enough to make you able to drush without mining gold at all). And ironically, since the sheep bonus also doubles as a wood bonus, Tatars can get water control faster than Ports.
The single most overrated civ in the game imo. People love them, but what’s the use of lacking so few techs if the techs you do lack make most of your units non-FU? (they get FU foot archers, Monks and navy. That’s all) And seriously, the fact they are the only civ to get all eco techs isn’t useful at all, your late game eco can perfectly live without Two man saw or Stone shaft mining.
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Byzantines are the most annoying civ. Old school trash push in feudal. They can counter anything you have. Yeah, they don’t get any FU unit, but again, they can live without it. Anyway, they could use a buff.
And Portuguese… Their late game is brutal. Just really hard to get there. Yeah, maybe they need some love
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Berbers aren’t the absolute top tier but they’re not far off which is probably why they’re actually used in tournaments quite a bit … so they’re not THAT unpopular.
Sorry some issues i have with the vote. Again it’s very subjective. All i play is ranked, and for me that feels like a vote as it is… Since people will generally play the factions they feel are the strongest, and will play least the factions they think they are the weakest.
Next, unfortunately again the factions are better or worse on certain maps. I haven’t lost a single game playing as Portuguese… Because i only ever used them on team islands.
On non team island maps out of 150 ranked games in 2 weeks i haven’t faced a single viking or Portuguese (the meta heavily favours archers and Knights, i struggle to understand how vikings are favoured by anyone in this meta, and its pretty evident in the ranked pool) (the feitora buff is great, but only applies in very specific maps)
I haven’t faced a single Italian player in the last 2 weeks, yet I’ve faced tatars on numerous occasions.
Ive only lost using vietnamese if an ally dropped and ive won a couple 2v3’s(early ally drops) they definitely are not bottom tier anymore. Imp skirms, rattans and eles make for incredible death balls.
The free wheelbarrow/handcart are super good to boost your knight rush, so while it will be of lower quality you will have a better eco to back it up, and Vikings get FU foot archers. Not to mention FU berserks can seriously threaten late-game cav spam.
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This is a really good point, and it’s why I wouldn’t rank Portuguese in the bottom 5, much less think they need a buff (especially after their recent feitoria buff). Portuguese have a very strong niche for FFA, black forest, and islands/team islands games (I even think they can be pretty good on Arena or Fortress/Regicide Fortress, but not necessarily top tier). While some might say that they need a buff because their late game is hard to get to, you can just choose them in situations where it’s easier to get to late game; there’s a wide variety of popular maps/settings for that. Like yours, my win rate with Portuguese is outstanding, because I use them only in circumstances where they shine, and I have a good record of beating top ten civs (Persians, Mongols, Incas, etc) on the maps/settings in question.
I would contrast this with Goths, whose lategame power tends to get overrated (depends on the matchup, but much of the time I think Portuguese lategame is better). Honestly, even looking at the infantry dimension, I think Slavs, Aztecs, Japanese, and some other “flexible infantry civs” have a better lategame than Goths.
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Welp, not too sure about this. Because while the Port’s late game is versatile, there are Turks, Italians and Spanish who are the same kind of versatile late-game civ, but they have assets to actually make it to that point. Also, you can forget your Feitorias for a good while cuz they won’t make you much good against say, 20 bombard cannons.
You have somewhat of a point, but IMO none of the three civs you mentioned have particularly great eco bonuses, and are all considered somewhat weak in that department, so I wouldn’t go so far as to say that “they have assets to actually make it to that point” with the implication that Portuguese don’t. Taking them one by one, the Turks’ gold bonus is decent, but I don’t know that it’s that much better than the Portuguese gold discount (a comparative study would be interesting), and a lot of people have ranked Turks near the bottom of this list. Yes, they mine it faster, but Portuguese need less of it, so while I tend to think the Turk bonus is slightly better, probably not by much. It’s kind of up to semantics as to whether you consider the Spanish to have an eco bonus - they save a little vill time on building, and the gold-free blacksmith techs are nice, but don’t really start paying off until mid Castle anyway (IIRC they only save 50 gold in Feudal on fletching), and again, it’s not clear to me that that’s a more decisive advantage than the Portuguese saving gold on every gold unit. Italians saving food on ages is nice, and is a clear eco bonus, but it doesn’t give them that much of a leg up on on land maps, and IMO Portuguese are stronger in Imp. Arquebus, IMO, makes Portuguese the best all-around gunpowder civ in Imp, although the Turk +2 range is an impressive contender that can be situationally better.
Edit: Also, considering that one BBC costs almost as much in total resources as a Feitoria, by the time my opponent has 20 of them, if I don’t already have 20 myself (with the discount, or a comparable BBC counter) plus a feitoria in the corner of my base if I choose to go for one, I’ve probably done quite a few things wrong.
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Welp, I was assuming the map was a closed one. And even on open land maps, while not top-tiers, all these eco bonuses prove to be better, and they get more than 1 bonus only.
Spirit did. The Port bonus is equivalent to a 17.5% faster mining speed for units only. Turk is 20%, and it helps for technology too.
If it’s a close map and we get post-imp fights, the Spanish will have saved 1350 gold, and they can get all upgrades quite faster. To save that much gold as Portuguese you need to build:
193 Arbs or HC
450 Champions
32 Cavaliers
24 monks
11 bombard cannons
Portuguese cavalry is better until the Spanish get to Paladins I guess? And their bombard cannon is better… but they need to get Arquebus and SE first.
Welp, that’s the problem. Italians are there first, even if not by much, their cheaper gunpowder is faster to get going in the first place. Oh, and they can spam barracks to make a Condo rush in early imp (closed maps), but the mere fact they get this unit will be big trouble to the Portuguese’ late game.
I guess it depends on micro?
I was saying that with pop-efficiency in mind. Sure, maybe you will have your 20 BBC. But your opponent will have his as well and 20 pop slots for either more BBC or say, Hussars (that the 3 other civs I mentioned get) or anything else that they see fit. And lastly, stone is much more valuable than wood.
Chinese
What? Chinese are easily one of the strongest civs, weird but potentially amazing start if you know what you’re doing, very versatile with the full blacksmith tree, camelry+halbs. Cheaper techs is an amazing all game eco bonus. Late game Chu-Ko-Nu and scorp deathball is strong af. They were countered by onagers but now they get block printing monks so thats another counter gone!
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Personally, I’d just want some more accuracy on my gunpowder units. Make them better at what they are already good in.
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However portuguese actually save gold, turks just drain their suplly faster than others. They could also have the gold last longer by the same amount that they are mining it faster at. So they would empty their gold mine at the same speed as others but would end up with more gold.
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