Erm…That was THE biggest problem for Persians before DE: Dealing with halbs. Its the main reason they were considered quite weak (for 1v1 ara), since you simply had nothing against halbs/siege, halbs/arbs and would die regularly to that.
The whole reason behind trashbows is to have an answer to halbs.
That has nothing to do with lithuanians ofc.
I listed Spanish and Indians because they each have a special bonus on their Hand Cannoneers making them work much more efficiently. But as long as you’re fine with buffing the Hand Cannoneer in general then we’re on the same page because as I said, a general HC buff could possibly fix that problem for Lithuanians or at least help dealing with it.
This is never a bad idea, I agree. While the original post that startet this topic (not by me) was about Goths, I was not referring to games vs Goths but was talking about Halberdiers in general.
Absolutely! The game wouldn’t be that great if that wasn’t the case. But I’d have less of a problem if it wasn’t a trash unit…
I actually though a bit about this. I think the Question is actually wrong, becaust you shouldn’t go full Cavalry against Goths. It won’t work reliantly.
But if Goths just spam Halbs, you can wall in, build onagers, bomb cannons + some trebs. Since Goths also don’t get siege engineers they can’t outrange you. All civs with siege onagers can even outrange goths.
The thing is, when goths begin their spam, you can’t get offensive anymore, it’s just too late. You can only try to turtle and wait till they used up all their ressources.
Of course, HC + ballistas might work, too, but whilst you might trade well your eco might be hit seriosly because you can’t be everywhere and you may run out of gold.
I’ve actually never played it like this, but I think it can work if your walls are not too long.
I’ve seen a lot of suggestions in this thread for producing skirmishers. Can lithuanians produce skirms fast enough for it to be viable against goths though?
But then you have hand cannoneers to deal with Goths.
I stand corrected then. However, Persian didn’t have champion and bracer skirms like Lith do, so I’m confident Liths aren’t too weak against halbs.
Yes I agree with you. You could in theory even play HCA, altough no Parthian Tactics hurts against halbs.
i don’t thing skirms are a good answer against spammed halbs if you haven’t already spent a lot in all necessarry upgrades. Even then, skirms usually don’t trade well alone, you need to spam halbs yourself to protect your skirms.
Then the goth player just mixes in some champs or huskarls and your whole army is wiped out.
Really bad idea to go for skirms against goth spam.
I also don’t think hc are that good in this scenario. It’s almost the same story. They’ll kill the halbs, but then the flood of champs comes and they’re all gone. Goth player even traded gold efficient.
That’s why you usually try to beat goths in feudal and early castle, that’s when you can have a powerspike they have no answer against.
Part of the problem here is that you’re fighting goths in imp, where they’re able to kill any civ
If it was vs another halb heavy civ like Slavs, you’d want to make hand cannons and micro your cavalry around to snipe siege, but goths are always gonna have an insane crank of production over you and the lithuanians options don’t hold up against it.
Hand cannons are naturally their best answer but getting to a mass of hand cannons in post imp vs goths with perfusion is gonna take more than just luck
Nah, Persians always had options to deal with them, and lets be real, nobody was making swordsmen to counter halbs with most cavalry civs until supplies was a thing. In oldschool Arena tournaments a common matchup was Franks vs Persians because they played virtually identically and the late game grinded down into paladins into halbs and hand cannons. Hand cannons are more than enough to deal with halbs, it’s just a gold intensive combo which isn’t a bad thing since civs shouldn’t be strong at every given point in the game like Persians are. Now Persians don’t need gold to fight in post imp with over-the-top trash options (in fu hussar, kamandar, and halbs) and this kind of logic makes a civ like Lithuanians look bad when there’s really nothing wrong with their options. They’re bottlenecked towards cavalry, but a lot of civs are. Berbers and Mongols can still make champions if they need it, and Lithuanians are no exception. Even without looking at the fact that Lithuanians have some of the best skirmishers in the game, it’s not a bad thing that civs need gold to beat other civs, especially when their options are so strong.
swordsmen were still used to counter halb ram. Persians have neither archery, infantry or super siege to deal with that
The simple answer is that there’s not so much you can do because Lithuanians vs Goths in imperial age is a bad matchup. And that’s balanced, because you are just not supposed to let Goth boom
Of all the civs, the lithuanian leitis and knight line trade the best vs halbs (with relics). Aside from that, you have several options:
Trash:
Non-trash:
If you go halbs + skirms, you trade very well against any other halb + skirm mix since you have Tower Shields. In the meantime, hit their eco with some relic pala / leitis.
Just because a line doesn’t have all of the possible upgrades doesn’t mean it is useless against the unit it hard counters. Champions without full upgrades for example, are still cost effective against pikes. People seem to be fixated on an all or nothing mentality.
Against most civs, just going straight paladins/Leitis is honestly fine vs halbs (assuming you have relics). They trade really well (not so much gold efficiency, but it takes a lot more halbs to kill palas than vice versa). Only exception is civs that have stronger or very fast producing halbs like goths/aztecs. Even if they are missing the last inf upgrade and supplies, champs can be a good option. They do also get late game hand cannons which require no tech switch and melt halbs. If you don’t have an amazing gold eco then they have solid halbs and fu faster moving skirms with bonus pierce armor.
Aztecs halbs ain’t touching lith cav. + 4 attack won’t make up for less HP and less bonus damage.
Aztecs do not have Halberdiers.
oooooops I ment pikes. Force of habit 11
More meant how aztecs and goths have production bonuses so even if they trade poorly they are harder to overrun. Also if you get 4 relics against aztecs, you deserve to win
Aztec pikes are bad against any pala civ that isn’t Celt/Byz, and 10% faster creation speed won’t help that. Aztecs are better of going for monks in this scenario.