That’s why I proposed spear+skirm being trainable from towers.
“‘Defensive civ’ doesn’t necessarily mean tough buildings or holding static lines.
A civ can be a master of mobile defense instead.
I’d give them an original Silver UT first.
Yes, now that the Mapuche bonus is in circulation, the Franks’ bonus has become a joke. But that would make the scouts rush even stronger… are you sure that’s a good idea?
But why?
I don’t know if it’s strictly necessary. In my opinion, as I mentioned above, it depends on what they come up with for the UT.
How to kill a civ in one fell swoop.
??
Or we’ll just remove it as it is.
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You could look up in my concept:
Yeah I think it is time for the Forager Bonus to go for Franks tbh. Imagine Romans Eco Bonus replaced by “Foragers work 40 % faster” or something like this. That would make interesting civs.
And speaking about the scout rush of franks. It’s strong, but not strong enough to be competitive on scrush maps with civs like khitans. Of the old civs the only competitives are probably Magyar and Mongols there. And I think Franks could get there if their Scouts had 5 % more HP, but ofc this would require a compensatory nerf on other ends (which could be the removement of the berry bonus).
Yeah I also don’t like this. Yes, Franks historically were not a CA civ. Howver I like that they are able to do that in the game. Otherwise the Civ would be way, way too predictable and everybody would just spam spearmen and the pike upgrade asap against them. It’s already a civ that isn’t that flexible anyways, so I am fine with a bit of historic inaccuracy as long as it is good for the game.
I don’t like civs that can do only one thing well, it only leads to cheesing strats and extremely snowbally games depending who gets a lead early on. Ofc civs need identity, but artificially restrict their Tech tree (even more) in the current meta… usually even a death sentence for the civs on high elos unless they are completley busted with the cheese. And then it isn’t fun either.
I suppose I could agree that it’s odd for the Vietnamese and the Franks to share the same +20% HP on their CA. However, in that case, you would also have to give the Franks arbalests, because, as you say, they don’t have much variety.
Chivalry is very expensive because it still suffers from the nerf that was applied when devs tried to keep it in the Castle Age. As far as I’m concerned, it can go back to 400W 400G. I’m also not a fan of this bonus/UT double-up, which is why I don’t like Howdah, for example.
It’s enough to give the Bearded Axe for free. I mean, the Gbeto have always had 5 range in the Castle Age and 6 range in the Imperial Age. That’s just how it should be. Personally, I’ve always found the attack speed ridiculous once they reach elite (correctly the attack speed of Elite Gbeto and Elite Chakram Throwers remains unchanged), and the cost of upgrading is also questionable because the Franks have to pay for Blast Furnace (Malians and Gurjaras not).
- Removed Bearded Axe
- Cost changed 55F 25G → 55F 30G
- Throwing Axeman
- Range 3 → 5
- Elite Throwing Axeman
- Upgrade cost 850F 550G → 725F 425G
- Melee attack 8 → 9
- Range 4 → 6
- Attack delay 0.82 → 1
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It’s a bit awkward yes. But I tried to solve the issue that the current chivalry makes that Paladin Spam possible - which is only “Balanced” rn because in most games you can’t really go for it, it’s just way too expensive.
I think it would be better if Franks would just focus on having the highest HP Paladin line - which would be their identity. And I don’t wan’t their Knights to have already 140 HP at the start of Castle age, but I want Franks to have the option to go for that - as “antipode” to stuff like Burgundian Cav or the Polish Szlachta spam. That’s why I chose this direction. Maybe there could be other ways to achieve this, but I think the results of the 12 % HP increase would be ideal to achieve that interactive unique tech play. It’s not overbearing, but it can be a nice tool in the right circumstances. Ofc 224 HP Palas will be super strong, but also still nothing you can go for in every game. And the threat of completley overwhealing opponents with spamming them would be heavily reduced.
(i also see the effect of chivalry given to another civ in the future, that doesn’t have paladin (and/or bloodlines/husbandry) this would make way more sense than to franks which have so strong paladins already)
IDK, maybe you have a better idea? Besides that it seems we agree on most other points on the general direction we see for the civ.
Here’s what they should have been done in AoC;
Other civs that get Paladin would instead get a unit stronger than Cavalier but weaker than Paladin. Let’s call it ‘Heavy Cavalier.’ The fully upgraded generic one would be capped at 160 HP and 17 attack, but the upgrade would be cheaper to compensate.
Hence, the Paladin would be unique to the Franks and would have a +32 HP and +1 attack advantage over the others, not just the ridiculous +12 HP. Even bumping the HP bonus to 25% wouldn’t be an issue; they weren’t supposed to have generic knights after all.
Frank and Khitan scouts with full upgrades trade equally against each other (as in both kill each other in exactly 9 hits with 0 overkill). Difference is Khitans need forging before their bonus kicks in while Franks get their extra hp for free. Both bonuses are relevant against spears (Franks can take an extra hit, Khitans kill faster), though Frank bonus is helpful against ranged units as well. So it looks to me like Franks actually have the better scout rush (especially since Franks have an eco bonus relevant to dark age). If it comes to prolonged scout battles, then I’d prefer having bloodlines to either (but bloodlines is expensive for Feudal age)
I think the biggest way chivalry makes paladins more powerful is by reducing the amount of time it takes to research paladin (that tech takes a long time - 170 to 91 seconds after both chivalry and conscription). Faster training speed is nice, but can be somewhat replicated by making more stables (and stables don’t cost valuable gold, unlike chivalry). I think that dropping the chivalry tech in favor of more HP would make Frank Paladins stronger, not weaker, and thus an option that players go for more frequently.
Teutons buff proposal:
- Ignores ‘ignoring armor’ features.
Adding a new technology is a bit more involved than tweaking a few numbers. A numbers tweak would be the easiest to justify or to revert if necessary.
In my mind, delaying the majority of the bonus to feudal age should reduce the impact of the bonus on the feudal opening. That is, although it may help get the 5th-6th scouts out earlier, the 3rd or 4th scout could be delayed enough to counteract this.
As an aside, the Franks are currently slightly underperforming in the early game, so a small buff to it wouldn’t be all that bad.
So that they lean more into the heavy cavalry play instead of CA.
I’m not really attached to that myself.
Well then, I guess that will make up for the stronger feudal age.
Perhaps, there could be an alternate tech that is only 5% faster move speed for civs that should be heavy instead of light cavalry.
It was either that or Hussar. This is intended to largely target trash wars: Franks are rather weak in trash wars (on live patch) due to missing two techs on their skirms, half of Bloodlines, and hussar. Additionally, with reduced mobility (missing Husbandry and HP on their CA) Franks would need something against CA, this would allow skirms to fill that role a bit better.
Arbalest but no Bracer? I could go for that.
Okay, new idea:
Franks:
Tech Tree:
- Gain Bloodlines
- Gain Arbalest (it’s a French word, right?)
Bonuses:
- Adjusted: Foragers work 15% faster → Foragers work 20% faster
- Retains: Farm upgrades free
- Lose: Cavalry +20% HP
- Retains: Castles cost -15/25% in Castle/Imperial Age
- Gains: Ranged infantry units +1 range in Imperial Age (only includes units with a projectile)
- Retains Team Bonus: Knights +2 LoS
Chivalry
- Moved to Castle Age
- Effect changed to “Knight line +20 HP, but move slower” (~4% slower at first guess)
- Cost changed from 600w 500g → 300f 350g
Bearded Axe
- Renamed. (I’m not an historian)
- Moved to Imperial Age
- Infantry units gain resistance to bonus damage.
- Either, +3 in general, only +1 for Spearmen “spearman” armor-class.
- Or 33%.
- Cost changed from 300f 300g → 450f 300g
(Elite) Throwing Axeman
- Base range increased; 3 (4) → 4 (5) (for 6 maximum)
- Elite attack increased; 8 → 9
Note: I expect the move speed penalty of Chivalry will be unpopular. Some factors I think should be considered in the judgement of it: 1) with the addition of bloodlines a flat HP increase is needed; however, 2) a flat HP increase will have a greater impact on Knights than on Paladin; therefore, 3) a comparably scaling modification must also be added; finally, 4) movement speed is more impactful in Castle Age than Imperial, so this is the modification most likely to lead to balanced gameplay.
Too many random changes for a classic civ.
Removing the iconic cavalry HP bonus, adding 212 HP slower Paladins, randomly getting two techs, etc., are not good.
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Nobody wants this sort of stuff!!!
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Why should anyone spend resources to get a negetive effect?terrible design.
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In general i don’t like that idea at all.
Franks missing bloodlines is such a unique tocuh for the civ and I personally think the only issue with that /(heir scouts falling off in late feudal) can be fixed. I don’t see why such an iconic touch for a civ should be taken away, that’s just silly.
(If we think about that bloodlines literally was introduced as response to the franks HP bonus. Ofc bloodlines shouldn’t have given scouts and CA +20 HP but 10 instead, but that’s not to be “fixed” by removing the franks unique touch)
My final suggestions on Teutons :
Technology Tree
Paladin is removed.
Crusader Knight is added.
Unique Units
Crusader Knight as an upgrade of Knight available in Imperial Age.
Upgrade Cost - 1250f, 550g
Upgrade Time - 160 seconds
Training Time - 28 seconds
HP - 155
MA - 3
ROF - 1.80
Rest stats are same as Paladin.
Teutonic Knight cost 80f → 70f (Gold cost unchanged)
Teutonic Knight HP 90 (110) → 80 (100)
Elite Teutonic Knight PA 2 → 3
Civilization Bonus
Barracks & Stable units +1/+2 MA in Castle/Imperial Age → Stable units +1/+2 MA in Castle/Imperial Age.
Option 1
Infantry armor upgrades are free. (If removed from Malay)
Option 2
Farms are 40% cheaper → Barracks and Farms are 33% cheaper. (If Malay bonus stayed)
I don’t want the Teutonic Knight or the Teuton Champion to be useless because the other one is a no-brainer.
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Paladin was already available for a lot of non-Frankish civs in AoK though.
kinda agree with your point on Paladin being 2nd UU for Franks. The disagreement is I think it should be shared between Franks and Burgundians. The HP difference will remain 32 as you want.
As for other Paladin civs, I already asked Crusader Knight for Teutons, Black Guard Knight for Magyars and Heavy Cavalier for Cumans and Huns. Not sure about rest 4 civs yet.
It sounds like it just complicates something that doesn’t need complication for the sake of it
Only change id make is that each Paladin gets the correct civ outline emblem instead of all having the fleur de lily
Also Celts include the people of Brittany which is part of modern France and Spain is close enough anyway
2 Likes
I’ve been vocal about removing them from the Byzantines as well; I’m extending their UT to the Cavalier (with a few tweaks)
They were all significantly inferior to the Frank Paladins.
Franks were ruined after the introduction of Bloodlines, Hussars, and Thumb Ring. They weren’t supposed to end up with just 6.7% more Paladin HP at the cost of a mediocre tech tree and generic late-game eco. The devs never compensated the Franks and drove the civ into irrelevance.
They should have replaced the other Paladins with Heavy Cavaliers.
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