Actually, I prefer Persians over Georgians but I know this is controversial.
Weaker against xbow to a lesser extent.
Garrison space should be increased automatically but drop-off should be researched with a feudal tech(probably the first tech in tower). Perhaps one civ should have the tech for free.
5% faster villager in Dark Age is not
Yes. But 5% faster villager is not.
You shouldn’t make farms in Dark Age. And I think it is only 2% faster collection with 5% faster villager. Basically OG Incas Team Bonus which everyone used to laugh at.
If you absolutely need farms in Dark Age, you are very likely in the back foot.
Maybe it should be 10% from the start like it started. If 5% meants nothing how can a mere 5% more be so overbearing
Correct. But buffing tower may make it oppressive.
It’s also a “Defensive” civ with one of the most offensive start.
Oh, yeah. Absolutely. I just emphasized on early game since pros always give more value to early game.
I think it is negligible but not nothing. How much extra resource you think you get as Berbers in Dark Age? I will be surprised if it reaches 50. I can be wrong though.
Now I realize I forgot to add Spanish. They get 20 gold from researching loom and maybe another 20 resources from faster building.
With 10% faster speed, villagers outrun all non scout units in Feudal Age. Also effect like this often multiply or even exponent.
True, but it would be more of a nod to the Teutonic Order itself…
But what purpose does it serve the civ? If it’s made faster then the point of being a low mobility armored juggernaut of siege and melee units is sorta lost
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Franks civ is boring and weak.
Whatever they’re doing… Teutons do better.
Better infantry, better gunpowder, better monks, better siege, better farms, even better skirmishers. And almost as good as Paladins.
Move Throwing Axemen to Barracks… Maybe even add a weaker Feudal precursor to it that bears a more historically accurate francisca axe.
maybe a reworked bearded axe as the “train UU at barracks” and range gets applied naturally so both forms get +1 range each ending at +2 like old beard axe
Increase in garrison will favor the counter tower instead kf offensive tower. The defensive side always have more number of villagers.
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I bet if every civ had a regional unit–or several-- it would actually help new players learn the game. Because instead of having fifty… five… (how many civs are there?) individual civs to learn, new players would instead learn about 15-ish regions or a similar number of archetypes.
Actually… Georgians are already pretty weak against cav archers as it is. So Now I really don’t like the idea of removing Husbandry from them. No, as much as it pains me to say it, I think the free mule cart is what needs to go. A hyper-aggressive timing on a “defensive” civilization is disjointed design.
Great… and here I was thinking it would be a bonus that is stronger in defense than offense… so much for that idea.
Farms in dark age are useful for various fast castle strategies. But perhaps not “needed”.
Yeah, and I think that is what needs to be changed. Not their late game, unless it’s to buff it.
Boring is subjective so I respect your opinion.
But when it comes to weakness, Franks have a winrate of 49.6%. Teutons 49.5%.
They are perfectly balanced based on stats.
Perfectly balanced without any exploits. 
But later. Franks is just way faster with Forage bonus and scout cavalry extra HP compared to Teutons.
I see. But will extra projectile be same? Or else tower rush players can send 8 villagers to do the rush.
I don’t understand why this is being discussed. It seems like one of the most pointless bonuses that could exist. It is only marginally useful in the rare case that a tower is closer to a resource than a camp (which was purpose built)
Nobody is ever going to place a tower (which costs 125 stone) instead of a lumber/mining camp (100 wood). It’s such a complete non-starter of an idea.
I don’t follow the logic here. You are saying Teutons are not being picked because they lack a dark age eco bonus, but the solution that was being discussed was replacing the knight line with crusader knights.
I don’t follow.
the Teutons represent all Germans (originally the entire HRE), not just the Teutonic order.
Yes, for now…it’s in case they later make a Germanic DLC with new civilizations trying to cover several periods of medieval HRE history (936-1517)…
Only in melee. Against Arbalester and HCA one can argue even Burgundians is better.
Yes. And Teutons FC Xbow is surprisingly good due to huge wood savings from farms. But this is very unintuitive since their archer line sucks and a dead end after early Castle.
Or we can take official civ classification as a grain of salt.
This really makes me upset.
If it is an open map with early aggression potential, towers are often built on crucial resources to secure the area. Situational but definitely more useful than +5 garrison capacity.
Yes. I understand the issue. Let me elaborate.
Pros prefer civs with
- Early game aggression potential - Aztecs, Mongols, Magyars, release Tupi
- Eco bonus that lasts the whole game - Chinese, Slavs, Romans
- Timing based civ - Italians, Malians, Shu, Britons (not as good anymore), Ethiopians: mostly archer civs
- FC → UU civs - Bohemians, Portuguese, Shu again, Wu
- Almost same as 4 but generic/regional powerful unit instead of UU - Huns, Berbers, Ethiopians, Gurjaras, Aztecs, currently Koreans
- Unorthodox strategy - Sicilians, Bengalis
Currently Teutons is like type 5. But way weaker than others like Berbers. So my intention was to make them type 4. So their “Slow to get roll” design will move a bit towards fast paced because new Crusader Knight will be as good as Berbers discounted Knight.
Edit: All being said, if you just move their extra MA bonus from Castle+Imp to Feudal+Castle (except Knight) it will do wonder. I’ll say even just scout +1 MA in Feudal will be enough for pros to pick Teutons if they can predict opponent will pick Franks, Magyars, Hindustanis, Khitans or other good scout opening civs.
OK here is what I thought for Teutons.
My idea is to re-estanlish two main playstyles of the civ, whilst “fixing” their weakness agains Skirms and CA. The mentioned are: Boom into Paladin (mainly for TGs). And Ofc their old Arena strength. Both have been outshadowed by other civs and Teutons eco is not on par anymore with some of the newer civs.
In this topic I saw a lot of comparisons to Poles, even suggesting to give Teutons Folwarks. I don’t think this is a good idea. I don’t like the concept of Folwarks too much and am actually happy it’s just for Poles. It’s balanced by being very vulnerable to raids. But Teutons are a defensive civ, trying to use Castles and Towers to protect their eco. The synergy of that, cheaper farms and Folwarks would be almost impossible to balance anyways.
So instead I just want to go the opposite path. Make the Teuton Farms even cheaper, so they get back to that boomy style, the potential of getting really high farm numbers with way lower invesmtent than other civs. A unique bonus, that currently just doesn’t seem to be as strong as other farming bonusses. So why not biringing it back to that level it used to be?
The compensation is that ALL civs get Teuton towers with extra garrison capacity. So Teutons don’t have that unique trush anymore. This especially hurts their Arena play though. Which means there they need another compensation. Which is that their Monks healing range is then tripled instead of doubled. Doubled seems to have not that impact as you would expect from a Bonus like this. But with triple range, this could significantly change, especially on maps like arena. The ability to let your monks heal scouts many tiles away, whilst being almost safe, healing each other whilst spread out will make it tough for opponents to utilize their mobility on that map against the Teuton Monks. It’s a minor adaptaiton as the cheaper farms will help on that map too.
The next is that I want to change the Order of the UTs. Crenellarions to Castle Age and Ironclad to Imp. Imo Ironclad is just not worth in Castle. It’s a classic Imp UT, and even that with a quite low effect. Crenellations though is something that can be adjusted to be an important upgrade in Castle Age. Ofc the extra Castle Range can be neat. But then also extra arrows for their Towers. That’s something the civ misses against especially CA these days. The Tech will be adjsuted so it doesn’t only affect Infantry units, but all units will fire extra arrows when garriosoned IN TOWERS, albeit with lower accuracy and a wide spread. Which is intentional to make it especially more effecitve against CA which could evade the extra arrows too easily otherwise.
Teutons get also access tot he new regional Shieldman unit in the Barracks, even getting one extra melee armor for them (in addtion to the existing civ bonus). The Shiledmen is especially useful against skirmishers - but Teuton Shieldmen are actually solidly armored in Melee and can hold the line against low attacking units such as the Spearman line (and die slower to Stuff like Knights).
So here it is:
Teutons
- (negative Bonus: All Towers become Teuton Towers with extra garrison capacity)
- Crenellations moved to Castle Age, cost and time reduced by 1/3
Crennellations secondary effect changed to: “Garrisoned units in Towers fire more, but inaccurate Arrows” with all garrisoned units getting extra 300 DPM, and towers extra Projectiles are set to 33 % accuracy - Farms cost 50 % less instead of 40 %
- Monks have triple healing Range instead of double
- [Shieldmen have +1 melee armor (eff +2/+3 in castle/imp)]
Camp or mill cannot deny xbow, siege and cavalry archers while towers help defend an area and reduce the defense pressure.