When will Sweden be nerfed?

[Moonshadow7475]

@ArrivedLeader22

And god caroleans, for a million times. How many “uniqueness” are stacked to that one unit compared to its counterpart?

1. Higher melee
2. A special speed boosting ability
3. Ranged multiplier against cavalry
4. Longer range
5. Ranged resistance

Has anyone seen another unique unit like that? Perhaps rifle rider is one such unit and it pays the price of being countered severely. Carolean even faces its counters better.
And don’t people think these special traits are already very contradictory in themselves? Why should a unit with better melee also have longer range?

You could argue that caroleans are not that strong now. Their spamability dropped after the torp nerfs in last patch.
Sweden is mostly fine, there are some cards outlayers in specific match ups (like 2 leather cannons vs infantry based civs) that might need some polishing. Nothing extraordinary.

[OriginalKnot717]

If it was a significant nerf to torp hp i can see it being good, problem I have with swedes is even if you control most of the mines, there’s always 2 safe mines and typically a 3rd that they’re very close to and they can put 12 torps there, that alone with blueberries and ironworks is a huge eco and they need 0 map control to do it, the eco they get just from 3 torped mines gives them so much momentum to push forward endlessly and regain the map.

Svea sort of makes them stand up to a skirm evenly, but they shouldn’t need an arsenal tech to beat a unit that they should counter in the first place. Caroleans still beat all muskets age 2 in melee, and as they have a charge ability it’s very easy to melee other muskets.

Sweden never make hakkapellits they are just bad units in general and they don’t mass skirms to go skirm goon, they always go carolean + artillery.

I’ve played against sweden many times, I have 3x as many villagers and sweden has still out gathered me.

The changes I suggest wouldn’t make them useless, I don’t think a huge eco nerf is even necessary just like a slight change to blueberries, standard berry rate is fine without that card.
What is needed is a nerf to svea because as it is currently sweden just go age 4 and get svea and it’s gg, infinite 6 mamelukes is also too strong, needs to be a 1 time card or fewer mamelukes, it’s way too valuable as it is.

[ArrivedLeader22]

@DAC1789

But are countered by musketeers with equal numbers (until double carded)

I cannot see that.
In the very early version where they get only 10 range perhaps. But now they have equal range, equal hp, and very similar damage output (19 * 3 vs 23 * 2.5). The only difference is perhaps overkilling with different firing rate.
Or maybe with constant HR and microing, so that the firing rate is neglected. But that’s still a soft counter. That difference can be eliminated by either longer range or ranged resistance, so you only need one of the two cards. That’s not a huge investment.

@DAC1789

by skirmishers with lower numbers(before svea) and by Skirms with (at least) equal numbers (after svea).

All musketeers are like that.

So caroleans compared to a regular musketeer:
(1) are countered by the same counters, but less
(2) are quite similar before carded, but can be buffed to extremely stronger.
That’s a clear advantage

[ArrivedLeader22]

I personally would prefer units with different advantages and disadvantages, than super units that can not be fully utilized due to bad economy or timing.
BTW I’m not sure if torp is nerfed to a fine state now.

[DAC1789]

@OriginalKnot717

Svea sort of makes them stand up to a skirm evenly, but they shouldn’t need an arsenal tech to beat a unit that they should counter in the first place

“sort of” as they still take Twice or 3x the damage and deal only 70% if they are in range. Also Svea is a 4age card, so its an upgrade, that can be counterd with another upgrade. If you are sending caroleans against skirms head on, just stop cause you will lose.

@OriginalKnot717

Caroleans still beat all muskets age 2 in melee, and as they have a charge ability it’s very easy to melee other muskets.

Perhaps micro? As sweden i get really bad trades in Caro vs Musk (unless i have the Leather Cannons with me).

@OriginalKnot717

there’s always 2 safe mines and typically a 3rd that they’re very close to and they can put 12 torps there, that alone with blueberries and ironworks is a huge eco and they need 0 map control to do it, the eco they get just from 3 torped mines gives them so much momentum to push forward endlessly and regain the map.

They would get that with torps or no Torps…

[DAC1789]

@ArrivedLeader22

In the very early version where they get only 10 range perhaps. But now they have equal range, equal hp, and very similar damage output (19 * 3 vs 23 * 2.5). The only difference is perhaps overkilling with different firing rate.

Try testing that… i have found that consistently my caroleans die to musks with equal numbers (and here 1 extra musk does a lot of impact).

@ArrivedLeader22

So caroleans compared to a regular musketeer:
(1) are countered by the same counters, but less
(2) are quite similar before carded, but can be buffed to extremely stronger.
That’s a clear advantage

Thet are countered less ONLY if the Carolean is triple carded and the Skirm is the same. If you card or upgrade your skirms acoordingly the edge of the counter maintains (Dtuch skirms, french skirms, Forest Prowlers, Ghurkas, Cassas, State Militia all eat caros for breakfast - even with svea.

Also, all this investment in Caros forces you to disregard cav., hence against the civs that i mentioned your Hussars AND your caros will be eaten alive by a simple skirm goon composition

Svea exists only because you need your infantry to last longer protecting your cannon otherwise, they would die instantly vs any skirm composition.

[ArrivedLeader22]

@DAC1789

Try testing that… i have found that consistently my caroleans die to musks with equal numbers (and here 1 extra musk does a lot of impact).

I don’t have access to the game right away but we can do the calculation:
musketeer against carolean: 150/23 = 6.52 → 7 shots, 21 seconds
carolean against musketeer: 150/19 = 7.89 → 8 shots, 20 seconds

When the musketeer fires 6 shots, that’s 18 seconds, where the carolean fires 7 shots.
Remaining hp:
musketeer: 150 - 7*19 = 17
carolean: 150 - 6*23 = 12
Both are on the same level where 1 shot can kill each other. Now the carolean gets his shot faster.
And also musketeers overkill even more (the last shot deals 23 damage to kill 12hp, where carolean needs 19 to kill 17hp), so they should be more disadvantageous in large numbers.

The only difference you can make is to micro them back and forth constantly so there is more than 3 seconds between any two shots, or in larger numbers where the shots are perfectly distributed (do not always happen) that the first round kills more caroleans than musketeers.

@DAC1789

ONLY if the Carolean is triple carded and the Skirm is the same

There aren’t a lot of skirmisher cards that increase their range, or multiplier, or defense, to neglect svea lifeguards. That’s still an advantage compared to other musketeers.

@DAC1789

Svea exists only because you need your infantry to last longer protecting your cannon otherwise

No other civs have anything similar to that. Adding “only” to the description does not make it less an advantage.

[OriginalKnot717]

They should take more damage though, because skirms are the counter to caroleans, musketeers should in no way be able to fight straight up with a skirm but caroleans can with svea because there’s no other card that matches it, I don’t see a card that negates 30% range resist and 25% increase to hitpoints or gives skirms and additional 30%. Caroleans are the only unit with access to such a powerful upgrade.
Combine that with 6 mamelukes which they just slam into your skirms.
Also do not forget that svea is not just 30% increase to RR it is also 25% extra hitpoints.

You cannot just micro because caroleans have 4.25 speed and musketeer have 4, caroleans can also just charge to quickly close the gap to melee, caroleans should never lose to musk unless they were brit triple carded musk against regular carolean.

They would not get the same with no torps, if you play sweden you should know it’s the blueberries and ironworks that gives them that unstoppable push, they get the torps gathering berries and mines incredibly fast in addition they have all their vills as well.