35 ??? atleast??? (20 chars ???)
Not really. Venetians armies never walked on Byzantines territories. So it will be weird to focus on a clash which never happened.
And historians are not sure than the whole Venetian leadership (only a part of them) were aware than crusaders will ransack Constantinople when they gave them the ships, like often they asked them to raid and conquer some territories for them in today Croatia. A lot of venetians lived in constantinople and died in this siege, a lot of byzantine refugee went to Venice with the venetian merchant ships which were able to leave or went into venetian controled territories.
I mean, they were allied, and their culture really similar , byzantine sold them a bunch of territories (mostly islands) they were no more able to defend for exemple. Love & hate. But not an open and long war with multiple skirmishes
The anti-byzantine planification was mainly constructed by Bohemond of Tarente and his political preach, which generated later this event
The rivalry with venetians is a bit exagerated, when this event happened because the exacerbated rivalry between Bohemond (a norman-francs) and Byzantine Emperor Alexis. Bohemond totally destroyed the reputation of Byz in western europe (for the centuries which come later too).
And the Crusades which initially were about ârescue the eastern christianâ become an ugly move to destroy these ones.
Turks started to be an huge big deal for Byzantine and crusaders states when Alp Arslan opened the âgatesâ of Manzikert. And their huge pressure on byzantine empire cover 1000 to 1200.
So covering a Turks civilization from Seljuks to Ottomans, seems to be a really interesting take.
They took some much territories, were a big threat.
Edit : Btw, I am not saying than Venetians are not an interesting pick. Just than itâs a bit exagerated to say than they were the real rival, and turks not worth it, is bit exagerated⊠even more when turks really took a bunch of byzantine cities and territories, and really fighted them (not like venetians)
This is better option for HRE civ.
10 civs for Europe and Asia and Africa
What about the Fourth Crusade?
Read the next sentence of that post.
I read it now. Still not convinced. The Venetians ended up taking most of the spoils from the sacking of Constantinople and there werenât as many of them living there, since a massacre against venetian traders happened some few decades ago. By the time of the Fourth Crusade, the relations between Venetians and Byzantines had completely sowered.
Like I said. It was not a move of the whole Venetian leadership and of the whole venetian âempireâ (in the meaning they already had several territories). Mainly a continuity of Bohemont preach against byzantines in western europe, preach which was shared by others later, as Dandolo or the Pope.
It donât mean than the troops which sacked Constantinople were mainly Venetians troops, but diverse crusadersâŠ
And my point is than the rivalry with venetians is exagerated compartivaly the huge rivalry with normans-francs, the ones which generated the hate against byzantine in western europe, and make possible the claims which allowed to attack byzantines.
Not really that late. Turks had been harassing the Byzantines in Anatolia since the Seljuk Empire, continued as the sultanate of Rum until the Ottomans conquered them.
Who was the doge of Venice at that time.
I just said than Dandolo preached against Byz. I didnât say anything about him being DogeâŠ
If I well remember, he is part of these venetians which actually helped with venetians hired troops,; the crusaders to attack Zara in Croatia, before going to the siege of Constantinople
My point again, is not to say than venetians were not an important power, not an interesting pick, or didnât have a capable army. Just than in this period we canât really speak about a venetian vs byzantine war. With a vision of âthe whole venetian army walking on the byzantinesâ (how it will look in this sort of game)
so it was a political mess, started by Bohemond, a franks, to create an hate of byzantines in all western europe, a growing hate which was finally shared and preached everywhere in europe; so by some of the Venetians, BUT not only them. (the thing I am trying to explain, but I am really off topic now)
So itâs not a venetian war, âjust a crusadeâ, a âjoint operationâ, of different powers of western europe to rekt a common opponent.
My opinion : The deterioration of relations between the venetians and byz, will not really appear in these sorts of game in any cases (I mean itâs unlikely than we will have a crusade mechanic, or the ability to sell shipsâŠ). When the clashes with Turks is easily translatable in the game as a rivalry : with multiple wars, harassment wars, sieges, skirmishes, territories conquests âŠ
I am all up for venice by the way. Having their iconic navy fighting the imperial age turks = Ottomans, would be epic⊠or some Italian wars campaign⊠Or the big naval battle of the Byzantine-Venetian alliance against Sicily navy (as Normans like the England campaign)⊠But is the fourth crusade itself justifying their addition with a byzantine pack ? I prefer Turks, but itâs subjective.
Lol no. You have no clue baout medieval Iberia. The Aragoneses had no link to Spain during medieval times. Culturally, most of their kingdom had catalan rootsâŠ
1 Like
I would add the Berbers.
1 Like
From my knowledge testing stuff in larger countries like china will have the best results. if it works there it will work everywhere.
Please, read my comment about what the different kings from the kingdoms of Spain thought about themselves in medieval ages:
I have dozens of quotes if you consider that itâs not enough.
At a certain point, Castille, Aragon and Navarre had kings from the same dynasty.
1 Like
That means nothing. At a certain point, france and spain had kings from the same dynasty. Furthermore, at a certain point, Austria and castille had kings from the same dynasty as well.
2 Likes
Donât forget that the roots of Aragon are in Sobrarbe, Ribagorza and Aragon county.
1143 actually. And some could even claim them to have become an independent kingdom since 1139.
3 Likes
Also, âexistingâ is kind of a weird term when referring to a country, since Portugal âexistedâ as a county since 868 AD at the minimum.
2 Likes