Oh, my bad. Didn’t remember the bonuses properly.
But I still stand by my point. Bengali monks are the best for monk rushes.
With Sanctity and one other monastery tech, they’re already at 55 hp. That’s not that hard to get to, increases their chances of surviving against any unit that might try to attack them (even light cavalry - 1 extra attack may be the difference between a dead monk and a converted scout, or it may be the factor that determines whether the spear kills the scout before the scout kills the monk), and you haven’t gotten through all the cheap (<= 200 gold) techs. Aztec monks don’t need all their techs before they’re tanky - just the cheap techs is a fairly potent hp buff. Plus, Aztecs have a few eco bonuses that would help them get to the monk rush. How quickly you can get to the monk rush matters as well. And remember, in a monk rush, any monk that survives will almost certainly get healed right back up by its buddies.
Unless you’re Aztecs, herbal medicine doesn’t help monks. It improves healing speed of garrisoned units.
My thoughts on monk upgrades:
Sanctity: improves monk survivability (can survive a mangonel shot, for example), not very expensive, and basically a must-get if you’re using monks
Redemption: situational, but very helpful. Converting buildings is only really good if you’re on the offensive or dealing with a proxy base. Converting siege is more generally useful. Monks are fully viable without it
Atonement: only helpful for dealing with other monks. Situational. Monks are viable without it.
Fervor: a nice tech, not very expensive, but not very strong. Would likely increase the speed of an army containing monks (since monks are a slow unit), but doesn’t do much to help monks with their normal roles. Only a must-get for Bohemians and Aztecs. Monks are very viable without it.
Illumination: good, cheap tech. a must-get if available and relying on monks. The fact that it’s an imp tech weakens it though, and makes it mostly irrelevant to a monk rush.
Block Printing: extra range is very powerful. A must-get that pairs well with redemption against some siege units. Also mostly irrelevant to a monk rush.
Theocracy: must-get if you have a lot of monks. Makes monk micro much easier/less punishing to get wrong. Irrelevant to a monk rush, though if you go to imp after executing a monk rush, you would almost certainly need this tech.
Heresy: an anti-monk tech, not very helpful for your own monks, and only really relevant to a monk rush if your opponent researches it (because it severely reduces the strength of your monks).
Faith: like Heresy, but worse and much later.
Herbal Medicine: not a monk tech. Aztecs would want to get it for +5 hp, but it would be a lower priority than most of the other techs. For Aztecs, its cheap cost may make it a better pickup than some of the situational techs under the right circumstances.
I will note that Hoang is famous for his monk-siege push with Celts, who only get sanctity and fervor. Though with a monk-siege push, you wouldn’t need redemption (you’d use siege instead), and atonement is only really something you’d miss if your opponent invests into monks. So it’s not like he really needs the techs he is missing…
Why would Heresy be a deal breaker? Did you mean Theocracy?
Best - Armenians.
Worst - Mongols/Vikings/Celts.
I place them in the B range because while their extra durability makes them far more survivable, the lack of Heresy means that you can have that backfire in either defensive or offensive Monk wars. A B is not a bad rating since Monk grades are usually an A/D/F divide.
I highly value Atonement.
Actually, fair point. 2 cheap techs and the Aztec economy is pretty strong. Their relics also do give more gold. I guess as he said, they should not be #1 but they are good monk rushes.
What you stated is true. However, getting herbal medicine for free can potentially free up monk seconds which can be spent converting units. The healing range also helps save time moving to the unit. I agree that free herbal medicine + free murder holes is much more a tower rush bonus, though. It just ends up unintentionally freeing up monk time.
Yes. Even SOTL agreed it’s the most important if I remember right. That’s also why they increased the price, I think. I used to be 120 gold.
It is for monk rushes + sniping siege. Monk rushes involve converting buildings. Monks are fully viable without it. Briton monks are an example. You can convert cavalry, heal up your archers.
If it was available in Castle age, it would make monk rushes OP.
Agreed. It also helps with converting cavalry because you end up starting your conversion from a longer distance thereby increasing the probability of a successful conversion.
Without heresy, you could have your monks converted by the enemy. It is very useful for monks too. Just not useful for a monk rush. The other issue is it costs 1000 gold… which is more gold than what you need to go imperial.
Heresy and Faith could both use a price reduction. It’s awesome if you get a version of this for free like the Teuton bonus but otherwise, it’s usually not worth it.
No. I don’t mean Theocracy. Theocracy helps a lot with microing of monks. Like if you a bunch of a monks start converting a unit, only one of them has to rest. You can totally select all monks to convert a single unit… and make them switch targets while they are converting the first unit.
In monk vs monk battles, having Heresy means your monks don’t go to the enemy. It is also a good thing to have in general because it helps your defence from monks… especially if you’re a civ that is into heavy siege (bombard cannon, siege rams, siege onagers or heavy cavalry (knights or elephants).
I think this is a disadvantage for Italians, Japanese (samurai people), Slavs (boyar people) , Bengalis, Burmese who otherwise have very good monks. Including words in brackets because of the world filter.
Byzantines and the Saracens (who currently have no monk bonuses except maybe the market abuse) are better late game than these civilizations because it is better to have a full monk tech tree (herbal medicine is the only exception) than a bonus that helps you get them sooner / cheaper. Byzantine monks have a bonus that lasts even after you get all your upgrades and have a decent number of them.
The late game is about quality, not always quantity.
It also means that you can’t convert the monks back. So for an example situation, if you have 10 monks and an opponent sends 2 monks at you, if the enemy tries to convert your monks, you respond by trying to convert them back (which usually happens automatically, because monks can auto-convert when being attacked). If the enemy monk succeeds, then both the converted monk and the converting monk are at 0 faith (probably a bug, but it is what happens). And then your other monks have a really easy time converting both the enemy monks and the monks your enemy converted. The end result is that your enemy is basically donating monks to you, and Heresy isn’t providing much benefit for you (and is arguably detrimental). If your opponent has Heresy in that situation, you’re only at risk of losing 2 monks regardless of whether you have Heresy or not, and you’re pretty much guaranteed to get rid of the enemy monks. Taking care of converted monks is generally pretty easy. 10v10 would be different, but also extremely risky (not a fight most people would go for). Though if I was seeing 10 enemy monks, I would go for Heresy and/or light cav/eagles, since my opponent is clearly investing in monks.
Side note: I used to be an Italians main, and their fully upgraded Hussars were my go-to meat shield. Lacking Heresy is a disadvantage, but I rarely if ever have to worry about monks. Only situation where they’d be a serious concern is if I’m going knights or if I’m contesting relics. In both of those situations, adding light cav to deal with monks is a fairly natural choice.
I’d put Bengalis and Slavs before Bohemians and Burmese, Portugese before Lithuanians.
There are some scenarios:
#1. You have heresy but your opponent does not.
#2. You lack heresy but you opponent does not
#3. Both of you have Heresy.
#4. Both of you lack Heresy
What you are saying is only for #4… and that is assuming your opponent does not delete the monks that he just obtained by conversion… or they don’t get killed by your own siege or other units.
This is in a small-scale scenario. Heresy is late-game tech for a reason.
Italians are an archer (and naval) civilization with cheap gunpowder. Hussars do take out monks well but it’s not like you lose a lot from conversions.
The potential for loss is not high unlike say the Persians, Slavs, Koreans, Khmer, Burmese, Spanish, Celts, Franks. I think you understand where I am going with this.
Heresy is huge for civilizations with heavy units : elephants, siege onagers, bombard cannons, paladins, boyars.
Contesting relics is something that happens early-game, my friend. I don’t think anybody (other than beginners) would spend 1000 gold on Heresy at that point in the game.
Yes. Even some crossbows. Anything that can attack quickly and isn’t expensive will do well vs monks. Monks are usually send with a spearman or a scout. at least on Arena. So, archers might be the better unit when it comes to contesting relics.
10 monks is already a lot to handle, even before adding in economy and other military units. Makes me wonder what you’d consider a large-scale scenario for monks.
Wasn’t arguing against that. Heresy is a superb anti-monk tech, and monks are a counter to heavy units. The context of this discussion is specifically on monks though, and more specifically on whether Heresy affects your own monks. You’ve stated that not having Heresy is a deal breaker for late game monks. I’m of the opinion that researching Heresy provides little-to-no benefit to your own monks, and so isn’t really a consideration for the quality of your own monks.
Whether the Monk is improved as a unit intrinsically involves an examination of how they perform in Monk play. Heresy is undeniably a crucial variable when using Monks against Monk civilizations, so Monks are a better unit for its positive effect on Monk play. It also affects support units.
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