This has no logic. Khmer already has good stable, good siege,good trash units (only 2 upgrades missing),good university;it has,2 of the best eco bonuns and has access to the arbalest. That is too much. It gives khmer, very solid felexibility and that is broken.
They don’t have the best friend of Arbalester - BBC
yes but they have infinite hussar spam
and there is no problem with that, khmer are actually pretty weak tbh
Nah it’s fine. Yes it’s a strong civ on most land maps and indeed pretty flexible bc they have great eco and good units. The only time where that can be bit too strong is something like hideout or easily wallable golden pjtt generations as no civ can compete with their fc. But they also have some weaknesses. Arbalest is pretty rare with them tbh. Also you miss thumb ring. Skirm is way more important for the civ.
They also historically used crossbows to a high degree, so Arbalest partly reflects that.
Khmer aren’t really a versatile civ besides they have arbalest and a good food eco, they are quite limited in their unit compositions.
I think it’s fine we have that kind of civs that can play knights and archers aswell. I like it. It makes the game less predictable just because of the civ you are facing.
Best example for that are magyars, that can play basically everything as main unit. Even if they usually prefer to play scout openers, they can do anything and that makes them one of the most interesting civs to play and play against.
Ofc it’s important that not every civ has that diversity, otherwise it wouldn’t be the speciality of these civs that they are that “versatile”.
To me the civ is highly versatile. First eco bonus allows for super fast range or stable opening. The second eco bonus helps create any food unit and boom. Your range is pretty good apart from lacking thumb ring. Cav is great. Siege is great with siege ram, best scorps, se but no bbc. This makes for a lot of possible army comps.
Like you cite magyars as best example for versatile civ. Not sure if they are more versatile than khmer. They are super cav based and you rarely see other units from them. Early game you have less options, mid game you have similar options but no eco bonus and late game you slightly more options but you basically only you use the cav archers and hussar while with khmer you rather opt for siege and trash.
I’d rather put something like chinese, malians or italians as best examples for versatile civ. Khmer would be one step below these I guess but still way above average.
I must admit that I was a bit inconsistant with the word “versatile” there. I think we need to divide between civs that have multiple “power units” to their disposal and civs that have a lot of different tools as answers to basically everything to their disposal.
Khmer and Magyars are civs that can go both power unit lines. Also they have a strong light cav line which is the substitute for power units in the lategame and knights in the early game because of the high raiding potential.
But Magyars is the only civ that has all three power unit lines (archers, knights, cav archers) FU. That gives them the clear edge in this comparison as Khmer have neither FU.
Besides we don’t see it as frequent it’s absolutely reasonable to go archers with magyars as opposed to other cavalry civ they actually do have FU arbalest.
(Tbh I don’t really understand why magyars not so often open archers actually. I think it’s totally reasonable as it opens so much for your overall strategic game development. Cause an knight followup of archers is usually very strong but an archer followup of scouts is a weird transition that doesn’t makes any sense in most cases. So even with the scout cost reduction I actually think that a maa archer opening for magyars is at least as strong as their scrush. Yet it’s right we don’t see them playing archers very often. It’s kind of surprising to me.)
Someone got rekt by a Khmer player. Cmon they already got the bbc removed.
Khmer are already nerfed many times and now they are fine, plus their arbalesters aren’t that good because the lack of Thumb Ring.
Khmer has Elephants and Scorpions though as really nice power unit lines instead. They can also play archers and other stuff.
True but I think versatility is more about the actual inventive to go for that unit and less about being FU on paper. Like khmer save the wood cost an rax which in dark / early feudal basically equals japanese wood savings. That’s a huge bonus for straight archers and gives them one of the fastest hitting archer rushes in the game. And after that the food bonus hits which either helps adding skirms, scouts or just go up faster to castle age and use the xbow power spike better.
Well the reason is that as Magyars you don’t have any bonuses towards archer play except for extra los. The only thing that stands out to me is extra atk on maa but at the same time you miss out that bonus plus cheaper cost for scout in exchange.
So sure it’s reasonable but unless your opponent goes full spears there isn’t a lot of incentive to play archers. If you make a lot of them you probably open xbow in castle age which conflicts with going full knight and that’s missing magyars only bonus that make them non generic in castle age. Compare that with khmer again and you have a civ with strong eco and some scorp bonus vs a basically generic civ if you don’t make a lot of knights early on. That’s why I call khmer more versatile at that stage of the game. You have bonuses that help you actually realizing your theoretical tech tree options.
Btw scouts into arch does make a lot of sense if you go for ca in castle age. Nowadays you see people going for scout into straight ca quite often but sc into xbow into ca was the standard build for ca play for a long time. And it also makes sense for civs that wanna play archer and boom in castle age but focus on farming in feudal age. Pretty common for italians and couple of years ago quite popular with britons anf vikings. Also makes sense as chinese and I can image it being good as bohemians (that’s at least how I tend to play the civ on open maps and worked pretty well so far).
Of course, scouts into cav archers is common. But not scouts into xbows. That’s what I’m talking about.
But you are right that with magyars the scout opening also allows for a cav archer switch. It’s just not that common for Magyars, usually a full cav archer play is very risky. Formerly the only civ that would do it regulary was huns.
But I think that all shows that Magyars is indeed way more versatile than khmer. And I like that both civs have this versatility. And I like that there are civs like Goths, Franks or Britons that are so specified. It’s a good mix. IMO there are actually a bit too much specified than versatile civs in the pool. That’s why I like the Poles also, cause they are also in that category of versatile civs.
But maybe I am biased, I like that unit diversity when I am playing. I like to have the options what I want to go for and not being restricted too much by my civ. What’s the sense of having like 12 different unit types with different utility and specifications if in the end you only want to play 4-5 of them cause everything else isn’t scaling? Just because of the civ pick?
I like if I have a lot of choices what I want to go for.
No the point is you go xbow before making ca. Sometimes people go straight into ca but scout into xbow is still pretty common as it gives you more momentum in early castle age compared to the straight ca approach.
Yeah magyars don’t have bonuses for that so you don’t see it as often. Their ca only shine in imp after recurve bow so ca in castle age isn’t common as magyars. It rather makes sense as something like huns, tartars, indians and even for Vietnamese can be good (huge wood savings and more hp). That’s why I call magyars versatile only on paper because you have these tech tree options but nothing to actually help you realize it (while khmer do so for instance).
Magyar Arbalester is an interesting topic. They are better than fully upgraded, with +2 LOS to find targets and avoid Onagers. Easily fall into the top 10 for foot archers, but its kinda wasted on the civ. In the late game, their Cav Archers match the range of Arbs, and have 12 damage instead of 10. Combine that with higher HP and speed and the cav archers are clearly the better option.
Nevertheless if you open archers and always have enought of them to upgrade at each new age, it’s not a bad idea to just stick with them. For cav archers you need additional upgrades and a stable which could lose you your momentum.
But I see the point. If you want to go for cav archers you usually open scouts, which are also nicely reduced for the civ. And as Magyars have probably the best cav archers in the game it’s something you like to aim for with that civ. Whilst a transition from archers to cav archers often jsut doesn’t make sense.
One of the top 5 wasted bonus without a doubt. I wish someday it will swap with another archer civ like Ethiopians.