Why the Konnik is a bad unit and needs improvement

Big NO, the bonus is fine and is just an award of getting relics, overall Lithuanians are fine dude , their paladins feel distinct to other paladins and even the Khmer Battle elephants.


Konniks are one of the best UU, and you can get way more Krepost than castles, which makes them even better.

While theyre not as good in lower number fights where more micro is involved, especially in late game battles, their 2 lives combined with the fast attack speed from stirrups really shines.

They can get a hard to stop snowball going.
And here is TheVipers opinion on Konniks:

Lithuanian off topic discussion

No, it is not fine that letis with 4 relics trades effectively vs anything and you can spam them +some skirm and win.

They still get +3 reward so i don’t know what you are talking about. There isn’t any civ that receives such a huge buff for getting a random generated object in the map.

It is, because it is incredibly hard to get 4 Relics, and +4 Leitis can still be beaten by Halbs.

+4 Paladins is a much bigger deal.

Letis off topic discussion

While paladins are better in most cases, they aren’t good vs melee heavy armor unit while Letis simply doesn’t care and is effective vs anything.

+4 Paladins are much harder to counter, than +4 Leitis.

Ranged units do not work, and even Halbs and Camels die faster than they can deal enough damage.

Lithuanians Relic bonus is good, but very easy to deny. It is not OP.

Letis off topic discusssion

Their cavalier are still beaten by generic paladin and their two handed swords man are better only if you research a special tech and even then fare bad vs anything that isn’t shortrange melee

Letis attack is smoother than paladins and less prone to DE pathing so even if Paladin can tank better, it is useless if they don’t attack because they are hitting each another. And also even if they tank better archers, they don’t fare that well vs teutonic knights for example but Letis does.

It is OP if they can trade vs anything. It is not only good or very good. It is the same case aa tatars cav archers on hill.

Konniks are op if anything, they are one of the best unique units in the game in my opinion. Especially since Kreposts allow you to mass them quickly.

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2Hs with Bagains beat Champions, and you spend no resources upgrading them from Militia.
Stirrups affeact Hussars too, and Konniks beat Paladins, so they already have options in both ends, and great, improved Trash.

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Guys, this is Konnik thread. If you want discuss Liths, go to the Liths topics. We have few.
And Konnik is practicly cross between Paladin and Cataphract, with strenghs of both.

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The thing to realise is that konniks aren’t supposed to counter archers. Yes, massed arbs will kill them, go with elite skirms instead.

They’re microing away from your dismounted guys - or not microing, just letting the mass of archers shoot. Both cases give konniks a disadvantage.

The thing is they are also against the horses, they can’t just micro against dismounted konnik. And when they stop to attack against the horse, the dismounted infantry will catch them. If they micro against the dismounted konnik, horse will damage them more so it is not favourable.

If they leave normal ai handle, it is the same. The konnik death animation makes them untargatable. Archers switches focus to another horse and dismounted can attack them.

from what we can gather here it seems the konnik is clearly a unit that needs some kind of management/thought in order to maximise its potential… unlike for example the frank paladin (effecitvely the frank’s UU) which half the time just requires max teching and can almost be thrown at anything…

@Polycarp5195 I was also doubtful of the konnik’s performance, until you understand how the game generally favours rock paper scissors combat, and one is usually aiming to have the most cost effective combat using the right counters to kill whatever the enemy is trying to throw at you…

and the konnik is one of the few units (along with the cata) that breaks the whole rock paper scissors equation, since it can almost fight everything… (its speed still allows it to close with archers, even if it doesnt have pal level PA), on a cost basis it can go toe to toe with almost every single unit in the game, even if it isnt the best, it can almost do everything, compared to say cav archers that are decimated by skirms, or archers that are rekked by siege, or most heavy cav that lose on a cost basis vs spears and camels…

until you understand this last paragraph, the konnik will never look as cool as it really is…

and finally it makes me sick to see this kind of behaviour on the forum… its been going on since ive joined and it seems it will persist forever…

one guy clearly marginalises and belittles the other, yet the victim is the one who is censored for pointing it out… WTF IS WRONG WITH YOU GUYS FFS!!! polycarp gets his post censored while olive is left open? WTF!? yes ill probably get banned again but still this is garbage…


You are right. @moderators take this issue in consideration.
The forum guidelines clearly states the following:

Please avoid:

  • Knee-jerk contradiction
    Instead, provide reasoned counter-arguments that improve the conversation

Case 1: Archers shoot-move-shoot-move-shoot-move. With every shot, they kill a horse and with every move, they get some distance from both remaining horses and infantry. By the time the horses reach them, a lot of them are dead and they have a trail of infantry behind them. A mistake is only starting to micro-run when they’re close, but if you don’t make that mistake, there’s no way to get surrounded by them.

Case 2: No micro, free shots. This is worth it when you have a huge late imp mass. It’s easy to reach the archers, but there’s no overkilling, so they always find targets - either infantry or remaining horses - and switching targets doesn’t matter almost at all, only the total damage output. A common mistake is single targeting, which leads to huge overkill.

The only archer micro that konnik counters is bad micro. If you want to prove me wrong, post a video.

Your reasoning doesn’t take into consideration that horses are way faster than archers and that just their range and moving won’t stop 20 horse from reaching them. Also the enemy can micro konniks too. Even with thumb ring and ballistics, you can avoid them.
Archers will die too(that is why i wrote 20/25) so after a while they can’t oneshot the konnik anymore.
Do you think that archers are cobra cars? There is no way that they can simultaneously hit and run and be faster than 20 cavs.

That means they won’t oneshot the konnik which isn’t favourable to them.

I have the impression that Konniks trade equally in resources with halbs and camels, and they defeat Paladins resource efficiently. I don’t think they need a buff.

Perhaps, they can do all the things bellow to help boost the Bulgarians overall:

  1. Decrease the +attack speed for Stirrups, but still keep it for the konniks, hussars and knight line
  2. Return to the Bulgarians the Paladin upgrade.
  3. Increase the Konnik’s attack speed enough so that the end result is their current attack speed remains the same as it is today.

The above are of course a slight nerf to their trash units as their Hussars would have a lower attack speed.

I am againts all of these, for the reason that I am honestly tired of Paladin civs, and Bulgarians losing Paladin while getting a compensatory UU, was a great design choice.

Every other civ that has Paladin, is a Paladin civ by default. It is honestly annoying and silly, as if you are just playing the same civ 10 times.

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Not always. Byz and Celts are not. Magyars and Spanish also not alwyas tech into them.
And yes, Pala with faster atack speed will be the strongest in the game. Probably will beat Frank, Lith or Teuton. Big No.

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