Only Celts do not go for Paladins, but Byzantines do, all the time, actually.
Spanish and Magyars always go for Paladins.
I often see Byz go Archers, and if they go stable, they go heavy camel instead, mix with Cata. Byz dont have one strategy and this is their strengh. They can go Pala, of course, but it is not
That’s very debateable. In my humble opinion:
Byzantines, Cumans and Celts are not Paladin civs by default.
Huns, Magyars and Spanish it depends.
Franks for sure. Teutons (post buffs), Lithuanians and Persians most likely yes.
The Bulgarians would go for Paladins only if they face an archer civ. Otherwise, they’d go for Konniks.
They have Elite Skirms and Hussars with faster attack for that, no need for Paladins.
I see Byzantines and Cumans going for Paladins almost every game.
Bulgarians do not have the last archer armor upgrade.
I don’t see Byzantines or Cumans doing for Palandin by default. Far from it.
Cumans yes. Byz… You can be simply lucky. Of course they can go Palas and they will against, for example, Etiopians, but it is not deafult for them.
actually you can make it so to apply it to knights and cavaliers but not paladin, so no need to nerf stirrups. Not that I’m sold on this idea but just pointing out the possibility
This is not true, Byzantines and Magyars prolly only go Paladin when in TG pocket position. For Magyars, Cav archer+ Magyar Huszar is their most cost effective strat in 1v1 and flank positions
Hussars counter arbs now?
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With faster attack and no Gold cost? It is possible in the long run.
If pathing got fixed it would help
You’re wrong. With around 20 paladins, I have managed to do that in my games with a huge mass of arbs. At this point I might as well quit the discussion, I don’t have any horse (heh) in this race and I’m not going to beg you to not let your army get slaughtered.
Which makes them take more time to get to the archers because they’re zigzagging instead of running in a straight line and it’s not perfect, especially at close range.
To justify his S-Tier rating he says “the dismounted Konnik have similar stats to a Champion, if my mind serve me correctly”.
With all due respect to TheViper he is clearly misinformed here, this may simply be due to him not noticing the recent changes to the Konnik. With 39 civs in the game it’s understandable that even the elite does not have in-depth understanding of every single unit with every patch.
The Elite Dismounted Konnik has 50 HP compared to the Champions 70 along with lower armor and lower attack speed. It’s closest comparison is the longswordsman.
I think what you along with most people fail to realise when they look at the Konnik is that its attack speed is slower than any cavalry in the game with the latest patches. This is why it looks good on paper until you read the fine print. The Stirrups does not make the Konnik attack faster than other units, it makes that the Konnik get an attack rate equal to other unit, you’re paying to have a penalty removed. The dismounted unit never gets his attack speed upgraded. So in order to judge the Konnik correctly one has to subtract about a fifth of it’s damage before Stirrups.
Stirrups affect also Scout-lina and Knight-line. And is castle-age tech. So you research it regardles you tech into Konnik or not. Konnik is unit realtivly simple to swich into, because all upgrades are affecting other units (exept, of course, Elite upgrade)
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Okay, he is clearly wrong there, but the 13 base attack are still there. So the stats are more comparable to a 2HS, while being a bit worse due to the attack speed.
Now Viper like many makes these rankings based on experience and not stats, so even if we would move the konnik out of S-Tier into A Tier we still have a strong unique unit that does not need buffing atm.
Cause in the end it still accumulated 190 HP with 13 base attack and for the main part a 1.8 attack speed. And most importantly messing up with counters.
Also I just reread your first post and am confused what your real problem is. You seem to compare alot to the boyar, but I still dont understand your real issue with Konniks.
And there are 35 civs not 39.
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I have heard that I don’t don’t know how to use them but no one ever tells me the “proper use” of them. You don’t say it counters halberdiers explicitly but you say it breaks the rock, paper, scissors equation like the Cataphract so I assume this is what you mean. Let me just state this clearly once and for all, the Konnik does not counter the Halberdier.
A Konnik can defeat 2 Halbs and will remain with 1 HP. Cost of Konnik = 60F, 70G Cost of 2 Halbs= 70F, 50W
The Konnik cost more in total resources and is a gold heavy unit, this is a terrible trade. Even supposing you play a team game and have unlimited access to gold it would be a negative trade.
The Cataphract by comparison can take on 2 Halberdiers with a third of its health left and does better when halb numbers go up thanks to trample damage, it is an effective counter to Halbs
As for archers, the Paladin is already a bad counter against massed ranged because of how the game mechanics work: only a fraction of the Knights can hit a massed group while all the archers can fire unhindered, this is common knowledge and why you want to supplement Cavalry with Onagers and Skirmishers in that situation… The Konnik is the same only far worse.
Well no, the 2HS still has 40% more HP and 25% faster attack speed making its attack greater. The dismounted Konnik is just a terrible unit. And this is the elite version, mind you.
Chances are Viper has only played the bulgarians once or twice since the patch, he might not even have used the Konnik at all since its changes.
Also I just reread your first post and am confused what your real problem is. You seem to compare alot to the boyar, but I still dont understand your real issue with Konniks.
I don’t want to reiterate myself but essentially it’s this, the Konnik require a lot more techs and more expensive production buildings than the Paladin and yet trades far worse against ranged while not trading even nearly even with the unit it’s supposed to counter, the halberdier.
I was about to provide a detailed answer, but at that point I believe we’re too far off for it to matter.
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Hmmm, deafeat of two Halbs as Cav is not bad. Cost-effectivnes doesn’t matter if you break throu enemy lines, and go raid. And when Konnik raid, you simply dont have unit what can easy beat them. Trade equaly to Pala, will kill Camel, Halbs cant catch them.
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And even when they can catch them, the Halbs will just die.
I’m sorry that you are unaware of this but ranged units can both use kiting and bunching up to compete with massed heavy cavalry. If the battle is not in open terrain it could potentially be a disastrous encounter for the cavalry.
it works to an extent with knights and cavaliers but Paladin has 7 pierce and 180HP, it’ll take 60 arbs to 1 shot one and once the archers get flanked, the numbers will fall off very fast
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