A very simple indication of the Yuan Dynasty being the Mongol Empire’s part is the Great Khan Khubilai. Under his rule, Chinese people were treated badly as he encouraged strict laws against them. It was nothing like the Chinese Dynasty but its name.
Another example is the Mongol invasion of Japan. The history clearly indicated that the Mongols invaded the Japanese Island (Tsushima 1st) and then failed to conquer the mainland due to Kamikaze (storm). This happened after conquering all of China and naming that area as Yuan Dynasty. If the Chinese invaded the Japanese records would have stated Chinese invaded our island etc. But it is not. Therefore, the devs must answer for this historical inaccuracy!
I have found this Yuan Dynasty statement in the “Fans Preview Page” under Chinese civ where they explain things. This needs to be fixed and Yuan Dynasty must be removed from the Chinese civ as it is completely inaccurate.
Edit:
Moreover, Khubilai had two titles.
1st one is the Great Khan (The Khan of the Khans) inherited the title as a Mongol successor through “Ih Khuraldai” (it is Great Khan’s election).
2nd “Emperor of China” this title is more of a political title to stabilize the region of China as the Chinese people didn’t accept his governance. Therefore, the devs need to understand and discuss with historians.
Further edit:
Chinggis Khan (Temujin) or known as Genghis Khan is the creator of the Yuan Dynasty. Why? Because before his death, he gave parts of his Empire to his four sons. And Chinese part was called the Yuan Dynasty. The Chinggis Khan was also the Emperor of conquered Chinese Dynasties during his time to stabilize the region. So now what? All of the Mongol Empire is Chinese? If the devs want to add Chinese they must be Dynasty specific. If I heard them right, they stated that they wanna bring historical accuracy. Then add Ming Dynasty. This Dynasty is the Chinese Dynasty that overthrew The Mongol Yuan Dynasty as the Mongols introduced harsh and cruel laws against Chinese people and brought Persian (Khwarezmian) governors to deal with matters and Chinese scholars were offended by such actions. In which later it caused peasants “Uprising” and civil war which overthrew the Mongol Yuan Dynasty. I believe the developers of the AOE4 discuss this issue with professional historians. I have provided few crucial historical data in my post.
Thanks,
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1 Khublai claimed himself the Great Khan but not accepted by other khanate until his death.
2 Han army is the most important part of Khublai’s army against Ariq Boke.
Regarding the history, Yuan Dynasty are founded under the rule of Kublai Khan(忽必烈汗). Kublai Khan studied Chinese culture and adapted in his sinicization policy.
For the fire lance unit, it is a great thing to be included because it is deployed by the Song army and adapted to Yuan/Mongols army.
We know that Chinese people participated in Mongols campaign under Yuan reign. Not that I say Yuan Dynasty was Chinese, I mean Yuan Dynasty is part of Chinese history.
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If you have any questions, check the relevant historical materials, such as Wikipedia, or the Chinese part of world history. Yuan Dynasty is the continuation of Chinese history. Emperor yuan tried to integrate into Chinese traditional culture. He was also an independent part of the Mongolian Empire.
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Fifteen emperors of the Yuan Dynasty.
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Because in China, the Mongols carried out racial assimilation in the late empire, bringing their race closer to China’s Han.
The Chinese believed that the Mongols had occupied their land but the Chinese culture had conquered Mongolia and recorded that Mongolian rule became part of the history of the empire.The empire was only changed instead of being annihilated by foreigners.
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Moreover, you do need to understand what does “Dynasty” means. It simply means a line of hereditary rulers. Khubilai was the Great Khan and did elect by the majority of the other Khan’s. It is later the 2nd “Ih Khuraldai” where he Ariq Bokh called for it. He then challenged and defeated him. The Mongol Empire was still intact until his death (1294). China was not free from the Mongols, therefore it is not Chinese.
One simple indication is the trade and Persian governors, scholars, and Slavic auxiliary units for Khan’s guards. The trade and taxation from the vassal states across the Mongol Empire were still collected by Khubilai Khan. The silk road was still trading as the Mongols were still united. It is the very simple identification of the Mongol Empire that was still intact.
What I understood from Chinese scholars is that they refer Yuan Dynasty of China because Khubilai adopted Chinese culture. But the Mongol culture is about adopting everything that is useful and effective. You can see it by how they live, fight, siege, govern. If what Chinese scholars claim is true then no such Mongol Empire existed in this world and is a bunch of different nations in which it doesn’t make any sense. That is why the Mongol Yuan Dynasty is not Chinese because the Mongols always adopt everything that is useful resulting in massive cultural exchange and diversification across their Empire and its neighbours.
Therefore, what Khubilai and alll the other Khan’s did are the Mongolian way of life. They adopt.
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Where did you get this? when it was drawn?
If he did adopt Chinese culture, that is the way of Mongolian culture. They are adopters.
Horse archers existed long before the Mongols. They learned it from others and mastered it. They were curious people and seeked for new, better, and effective things (ideas, technology, culture, religion). They adopted all such things and is the main reason why they made huge change in the history of the world. They diversified culture by exchanging it with conquered and neighbouring civilizations. This is Mongol Culture. So by adopting Chinese culture, Khubilai lived like a Mongol. His laws are proofs of his vision and toughts.
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That’s the picture recovered from historical data, Kublai Khan’s coronation. Chinese people recognize the foreign rulers who accept Chinese culture as the continuation of Chinese traditional culture and history. Mongolia is also one of the 56 ethnic groups in China, and is a member of the country. The Mongolian population in Inner Mongolia Autonomous Region is more than that in Outer Mongolia. Outer Mongolia broke away from China under the planning of the Soviet Union. Later, the Chinese government sent troops to recover Outer Mongolia, but it failed because of the military intervention of the Soviet Union.
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your opinion about Mongolian culture is about adaption is certainly a unique way of seeing it.
History is very interesting to study and different people may have different view on one thing or another. We Chinese people have Twenty-Four Histories as our authentic history text, History of Liao(遼史), History of Jin(金史), History of Yuen(元史) are included as a part of Chinese history.
Nowadays people are rarely claiming themselves Khitans(契丹) or Jurchens(女真) but they live in China and I actually have a Jurchen lineage friend who adapt a Chinese name(for 4 generations) and culture.
I studied history a lot and I know that Mongols had different policies on different region that they have conquer. Such as Kiev Rus, Ystoria Mongalorum(蒙古史) clearly describe how Mongol collected tax and conscript their locals based on each of their family scale. On the other hand, according to History of Yuen, Chinese people need to do exam(元代科舉) before you can be an official which is adopted from previous dynasty.
Disclaimer: I am not major in Yuen history, I point out that is what I know to be true. If I miss something, pls dont kill me.
Your statement of Yuan must not be China is quite radical, it would be good at a university discussion but in public occasion, you may offend somebody. I did that before.
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I feel your arguements only work if it was that the CHinese are not connected to the Yuan,they are but the point he is I think trying to make is the that the Mongols are literally the Yuan.
\The Mongols remained distinct from Han and saw themselves as different people. China would not conquer Mongolia until the Qing dynasty. Until then they were under the purely Mongol Northern Yuan (1650s) and then their breakaway and brief reunifier the Dzungar Khaanate (1758). They actually delivered some of THE worst defeats in Chinese history like the Tumu crisis. The Great wall is to the south of inner Mongolia which was built during the Ming dynasty. They oversaw the Mongolian reneisance, Zanabazar, Dayan khaan, Queen Mandukhai etc were part of it. etc
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i think they mean less that the Chinese aren’t connected to the Yuan but rather the Mongols are far more so or at least equally connected being the same state etc yet are unrepresented in this regard.
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Hi, I signed up just to share this article I found…please read to the end as it complements what Subotai is trying to convey here.
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The history of Mongols is not long. For example, during the Han Dynasty, northern China was the territory of the Huns. Later, it was defeated and annexed by the Han Empire, and some of the Huns moved to the west, which had an impact on the Central Asian and European regimes. In the Tang Dynasty, northern China was the territory of Turks. Later, it was defeated and annexed by the Tang Empire, and some Turks moved to the west, which brought a lot of trouble to Central Asia and Europe. The Mongolian nationality was formed in the Song Dynasty, and then developed and grew up. However, the Mongolian Empire only existed for more than 100 years. In the Ming Dynasty, the Yuan Dynasty was overthrown, and the northern Mongols were constantly attacked and eroded by the emperor of the Ming Dynasty. The Mongolians recorded that this period of history was that the Mongols were constantly invaded and retreated by the Ming Dynasty. By the time of the Qing Dynasty, the Mongols were completely conquered. The history recorded by the Mongolians is that the Qing Empire controlled and reduced the population of the Mongols, enslaved the Mongols, and controlled their thoughts. So now the population of Mongolia is only more than 3 million, which is caused by a series of policies of the Qing Empire. Mongolian history is not long. It began to appear in the Song Dynasty. The grassland in northern China was the territory of Huns and Turks before, and was defeated and annexed by the Chinese. It was only at the beginning of the Song Dynasty that the Chinese lost control of the grassland in northern China and conquered it again in the Qing Dynasty. This is the history of the nationalities in northern China.
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In addition, the Great Wall should not be the dividing line between China and the nomads, because the construction of the Great Wall is the cheapest way of defense. Every dynasty in China can successfully subdue the nomads, but it’s easy to attack and difficult to defend. China is a farming nation, and it can’t adapt to the life of the northern grassland. The military logistics support is also very difficult, so it often wins the battle, but it can’t defend well, So the construction of the Great Wall is the cheapest way to prevent the nomads from worrying. The nomadic people in the north are all horseback people. They all attack and plunder quickly, and then withdraw quickly. The Chinese army is mainly infantry. Before they catch up, the other side has already run away, so building the Great Wall is the best way. However, after the northern nomads were defeated and annexed, the role of the Great Wall was just a decoration for the prosperity of the Empire. Every dynasty in China would repair and build the Great Wall to show the prosperity of the Empire. In the later period of history, the role of the Great Wall became smaller. Only when there was civil strife in China and there was not enough control over the northern nomads, the great wall could play its role. For example, the emperors of Qin, Han, Tang, Yuan and Qing regarded the Great Wall as an imperial ornament to show the power of the Empire. Because the nomads of the North conquered and controlled it, it did not pose a threat.
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IMO your arguments are irrelevant. The point is the Mongol faction in aoe4 is more connected to the Yuan than the Chinese faction in-game yet is not represented in this regard. Like if the Jurchen/manchu got their own faction lead by Aison Goro and co yet could not form the Qing yet the ability was given to the Ming.
Also your facts are bit faulty as I said the Mongols had great victories of the Ming such as under Esen Taishi and after Dayan khaan started to push them back and built forts and garrisons to keep them out of retaken land. Both nearly takng Beijing. Altan khaan forced the Ming to resume trade relations which allowed him to rebuild his economy which was ruined by smallpox. Ligden thought the 2nd to last of the Northern Yuan was paid nandsomely by the Ming to agitate against the Manchu after they stopped suddenly he attacked and forced them to resumre their subsidies at an even greater level
This is while the Mongolian reneisance was going on. In addition Mongolia’s population though suffering under the Qing was not reduced to 3 million. The Mongols never numbered that much in the first place. Based on Chinggis’ troop number which where the most men he could possibly get historian estimate the Mongol population at the start of the empire at 500-800k with the most generous and largest estimates peaking at 1 million.
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But the issue with the “Great Wall” is that it never finished. Chinggis Khan’s army simply went all the way around without getting into costly fight. There are many reasons why it never finished. For example, the extreme terrain. Most of the wall is built on top of the mountain. Not to mention the woody terrain. It costed too much, that the Chinese dynasties struggled to finish and some historical evidences prove that they even used dead people (workers).
The wall works only when it is finished. Chinggis Khan passed it and told his soldiers nothing is valuable until it is finished.
At that time, Jin was destroyed by Mongolia and Song Dynasty. Song and Mongolia cooperated and opened the gate of the Great Wall by way of or in a certain section of the Great Wall, so that the Mongols could avoid Jin’s great wall. Later, some Mongolian troops made a detour from Dali (now Yunnan Province of China), attacked and destroyed Song Dynasty, and the Yuan Empire was established.The Mongolian army that actually destroyed Song Dynasty was not the powerful cavalry of Mongolia, but the rebels of Song Dynasty who helped Mongolia to destroy Song Dynasty. The Mongolian cavalry could not exert its power in the mountainous and river south of China. At the end of the Ming Dynasty, the Empire was attacked by the uprising to Beijing and was on the verge of extinction. Wu San gui, the northern garrison general of Ming Dynasty, reached an agreement with the Manchu people outside the Ming pass under the temptation of huge interests. Wu San gui opened the gate of the northern Great Wall of Ming Dynasty and let the Manchu army drive straight in. The Ming Imperial Garrison and uprising army were defeated by the Manchu Army unprepared. In this way, the Ming emperor committed suicide and died, and the Qing Empire was established. If Wu San gui had not opened the gate of the Great Wall, the Manchu would not have perished the Ming Dynasty, and China would continue to be the dynasty of the Han people.
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