Why We did not see Turkish or Ottoman Empire yet in Aeo4?

Age of Empires IV IV - Discussion
141

You have a point that any empire will fall some day. Well, cities from the Atlantic Moroccan coast to the Indian ocean, from the heart of Europe to the end of the Arabian deserts paid tribute to the Ottoman Empire later in time. Tribute was widespread and in diverse situations.

The crux here is, Constantinople almost continuously withstood 1,000 years of sieges and never fell. No other city on planet Earth withstood 100. Rome fell easily in the year 410 AD soon after directly threatened. So we’re talking serious, at once unmatched, military and strategic strength here, not frescos and palaces.

Plus with Venice and Genoa backing the Byzantines, they had some of the best technology money could buy.

The legendary fortress of Rhodes, garrisoned by equally legendary elite Knights Hospitaller from all Europe, was the most expensive and sophisticated fortress in the world, an inexpugnable masterpiece of Italian money and engineering. Rhodes only finally fell when smashed by Ottoman Great Bombards and sapped at several spots, with heavy losses on the Empire.

Byzantines and the Ottoman Empire are galaxies away from other prospective AoE 4 DLC civs.

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142

I mean 
Abbasids felt way earlier, and are in the game, and fit with the trope of the game

143

Personally I have immense respect for Hungary, historically it is one of (sometimes the) strongest European fighting forces, much more than the English for example. I hope Hungary makes it into the game in the fifth DLC as I mentioned in my suggestion above. :muscle:

But we can’t totally lose perspective of reality. The Ottoman Empire was a superpower fighting bloody wars with real world powers such as Safavid Persia and Mamluk Egypt in 3 continents
 Hungary was far from being a priority.

A short time before the Ottoman Empire ANNIHILATED Hungary and European allies in Mohacs 1526 (the Empire had defeated strong Hungarian+European armies several times before), deleting the existence of Hungary from the map, the Empire fought the massive, bloody campaign of Chaldiran 1514 (Chaldiran War, the first of so many large-scale Ottoman-Persia wars) against that timeless powerhouse of the history of the world, (Safavid) Persia.

That was the Empire’s #1 priority by far, not small Hungary and their European allies, which couldn’t even dream to threaten Anatolian cities. Persia DID threat them.

And then right after the bloodbath with Persia, the Ottomans fought another major war against Mamluk Egypt 1516-1517, the very same state that had OBLITERATED the Mongols on the battlefield twice and dismembered their commander (Mongols swore revenge but never came close to the major world metropolis of Cairo). The Ottoman Empire DEMOLISHED the very powerful Mamluk Sultanate and conquered the great metropolis Cairo. Only after that obviously, did the Empire really turn its attention to small-but-strong Hungary.

Also, I gotta say you’re mistaken man, AoE 4 timeframe is over in 1650, NOT 1520. Based on official site.

Below: Masterly Iranian artwork of heavy Ottoman cannon battery crushing Safavid Persia’s armies in War of Chaldiran

Chaldiran_painting_in_Chehel_Sotoun1
Chaldiran_painting_in_Chehel_Sotoun11612×1726 629 KB

1555-56_CE_World_Map.PNG
1555-56_CE_World_Map.PNG1920×1221 168 KB

(Tibet and Russia look big but are mostly empty)

144

I was talking about Hungary. I never said that the Ottomans were not a superpower, in fact we learn here that they were the strongest empire in the 15-16th centuries.

Every civ ends before 1560 according to the official site, except the Chinese. The reason is the Ming Dynasty ended in the 17th century and they had a technological disadvantage over (Only in the later centuries) other civs back then.

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Yeah man, I know. Main point is, the Empire was so focused and busy on mega wars with powerhouses Persia, Mamluk Sultanate, the Mediterranean naval wars, the Indian Ocean naval war with Portugal and Spain, that Hungary was a bit down there on the list of priorities


But I know Turks have great respect for Hungary even today, as their most worthy European adversary in late medieval age. Ironically, today’s Hungary gets along with Turkey better than their EU “partners” right now.

The Ottoman Empire’s win rate was even higher in the 14th century, probably the highest in the world ever in fact.

Therefore, between at least1350-1650 and even longer, the most decisive period of Age of Empires 4, the Ottoman Empire was the world’s preeminent superpower.

Together with Byzantines they’re BY FAR the must-have DLC civ (honestly having English or Rus in launch civ roster instead is unbelievably bizarre imo).

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CALCULATING THE REAL MOST IMPORTANT AOE 4 CITY IN THE WORLD

“If the world were one country, Istanbul would be its capital”

  • Napoleon Bonaparte, Emperor of the French, Master of Europe, Year 1801 AD

Ollie Bye is a hardcore data cruncher. His encyclopedic “Largest Cities Throughout History: Every Year” is public on YouTube. His focus is on world top 7 cities each year for millennia.

.

Here’s a simple, objective, fast but very meaningful calculation, let’s call it “City Historical Power” or whatever you like, only encompassing only years 600-1700 for Age of Empires IV (at the start of the timespan, the largest city is actually Ctesiphon, Persia); for each year in number 1 spot, a city gets 7 points; in number 2, gets 6 points and so on until number 7, gets 1 point. Outside world top 7, zero points. You can obviously streamline calculation a lot since cities don’t switch spots in the ranking like crazy.
.

The results for “City Historical Power” in AoE 4 timeframe are (selected cities only):

1. Constantinople / Istanbul 3,720
(AoE 4 time: Byzantines / Ottoman Empire; today: Turkey)

2. Cairo 2,641
(AoE 4 time: Mamluk Sultanate; today: Egypt)

3. Beiping / Beijing 1,703
(AoE 4 time: Ming; today: PRC)

4. Baghdad 1,448
(AoE 4 time: Abbasid Dynasty; today: Iraq)

5. Paris 652
(AoE 4 time: Kingdom of France; today: France)

6. London 141
(AoE 4 time: English Crown; today: the UK)
.
.

Full optimized data & calculations are below:

Constantinople
600-658 2, 658-800 5, 800-897 3, 987-977 2, 977-1011 3, 1011-1147 2, 1147- 1202 1, 1498-1540 5, 1540-1611 2, 1611-1679 1, 1679-1700 2
58 x 6 + 142 x 2 + 97 x 5 + 10 x 6 + 34 x 5 + 136 x 6 + 55 x 7 + 42 x 2 + 71 x 6 + 68 x 7 + 31 x 6 = 3,720
Baghdad
770-796 2, 796-962 1, 962-1003 5
26 x 6 + 166 x 7 + 41 x 3 = 1,441

Beiping / Beijing
1368-1403 6, 1403-1425 7, 1425-1442 4, 1442-1614 1, 1614-1646 2, 1646-1700 4
35 x 2 + 22 x 1 + 17 x 3 + 172 x 7 + 32 x 6 + 54 x 3 = 1,701
Paris
1244-1267 6, 1267-1357 4, 1357-1372 2, 1372-1390 3, 1390-1425 4, 1425-1476 7
23 x 2 + 90 x 3 + 15 x 6 + 18 x 5 + 35 x 3 +51 x 1 = 652
London
1653-1700 5
47 x 3 = 141
Cairo
1026-1206 4, 1206-1282 2, 1282-1380 1, 1380-1537 3
180 x 4 + 80 x 6 + 98 x 7 + 157 x 5 = 2,641

Let me know if there are many mistakes in calculation. Do you have any suggestion of another method to produce a ranking of the most important cities (or civs) in History?

147

A mere 10k troops vs 100-130k
I had no idea they could muster so few troops, and that’s with the Italian troops.

The Ottos had 5 times as many Janissaries as the enemies had troops

France would sometimes field 40k troops against the English in a battle, as if you should need to send so many


Like I keep saying
 Nobody cared. Nobody showed up.
The Italians, hounded by the pope, must have sent a few thousand just to shut him up lol
Nobody else even bothered doing that.

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@JetDinosaur2039 Check last post above

:arrow_up:
I know you’re salty but NUMBERS don’t lie. Constantinople / Istanbul is by far THE most important city in the WORLD in Age of Empires 4 time, 750-1650. Beijing is number 3.

Let’s gather here to learn and discover together.

149

10k is a number. A surprisingly low number for such a great empire, except that they couldn’t even field that, they had to have help from their allies to get to that low number


10k vs 100-130k is laughable btw, I’m actually amazed at how much pride you take in winning that battle lol

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150

This was a siege, a heavily fortified one. This is very typical siege troop proportion my Chinese friend (if your numbers trusty? Wiki says 4,000 dead, 30,000 enslaved but you say total defenders 10,000 without counting all navy crews +mercenaries
). I didn’t win a damn thing. Fall of Constantinople was over half a millenium ago. :slightly_smiling_face:

Long historical processes mature over centuries, but eventually reach their end. Fall of Constantinople is the most iconic and era-defining siege in history, it ends the Middle Ages in the world.

What’s mesmerizing is that Constantinople withstood all sieges for 1,000 years
 a millenium! No other city on planet Earth (especially none in China) withstood even 100 years of sieges. We should think long about it.

Based on absolutely authoritative numbers from a world-famous History data cruncher with a quarter million subscribers, Constantinople / Istanbul is by far THE most important city in the WORLD in Age of Empires 4 time, 750-1650 . Beijing is number 3 in importance.

This has deep, profound significance for Age of Empires 4. No one can deny this right? You can verify the calculations yourself. I’d be happy if someone suggested a better way to build this ranking, but it’d be herculean

:arrow_up:

151

Fair enough. But most of the discussion in this thread has focused on the Ottomans, who were only one of several Turkic-speaking groups.

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153

I stopped reading here. There’s no such thing as a single objective answer to a question like that, so it immediately feels like whatever comes next will be subjective and conclusory.

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155

The deep numbers in the above investigation contain much significance, regardless of the interpretation. Don’t you think?

156

I don’t mean to play moderator, but I don’t like the tone of this post. I doubt China during the Middle Ages was any less beautiful or any more polluted than the Byzantine Empire anyway.

157

That’s a good point actually. Actually the civ discussion went deeper in that other Architecture topic we were talking before, the whole empire sequence from Turkish Khanate, Seljuks, Ottomans in detail. But you see, I have limited power to direct conversations, this is not even my Topic, I’m just contributing a little data, investigation and results.

158

Are you ok with our Chinese friend calling me a worshipper weirdo before just because I shared a little of my work?

159

I mean, that was a little over the line too, now that you pointed it out. But I will let the mods sort this out.

160

A little, bro? 20 characters

161

Everyone done here discussing the topic?

162

We were done like 5 threads ago

1 Like