I wouldn’t delete this one feitoria when reaching imp. Even if it is only about half efficient in terms of pop efficiency as villagers extra 20 vills would need to be trained first (plus 5 farms). You could use that ressources to make army instead. At the same time the proposed feitoria gives 2 gold / minute which is a really nice long-term gold income.
Surely there would be a period of time where you would run better if you had villagers instead of the feitoria, but I don’t think it’s worth deleting that building especially if you look at the long-term gold supply.
But that would mean that the feitoria would also buff the portuguese boom and lead to the problems on closed maps I explained earlier.
I am also generally a bit skeptical about adding eco in feudal. Imo feudal doesn’t provides the strategic diversity in the game to make the “eco vs military” decision justified. Feudal is more an age of skirmish, basic openers playing out against each other and determine the roles of the players to take in the following. Adding eco options at that stage feels more like a desperation move to bring strategic depth into an age where it doesn’t belongs into.
And that’s exactly what most players actually don’t want and also always criticized on the feitoria, as it is an unlimitied gold source.
I also think that the drop of of available gold on the map is too hard in the current design of most maps, but I am heavily against adding unlimited gold access to 1v1s.
Part of the design of the game is that gold becomes scarce at some point and you need to invest it carefully cause if you run out of hit, you get into trouble. I think it’s an important part of the basic game design.
I hope you mean 2 gold/second or something, because for 2 gold a minute I might as well just sell 100 wood that a vil chopped in that time.
Even then, 2 gold/second is 6 relics. That’s… too strong for 1v1s.
Sure, why not.
I don’t think ports are that good on closed maps in imp. There are better civs. Lacking squires is a big deal and Palas are usually a very good counter to ports. Also they die to hussar/SO from Slavs, Bulgarians. And they die to huss/CA from a lot of civs.
I think that if Ports had a better earlygame with the feitoria you could justifiably nerf their imperial age options, such as removing siege engineers, in favor of giving elite organs +1 range (the ballistics on the BBC is good enough honestly).
Considering we are playing a strategy game I don’t see this is relevant. A Port player going for feitorias would make you have the same game posture as a Viking player just existing and having his +3 vils working from the start of feudal. When I go into a match I already have to consider the facts I am playing against a certain civ, like that I shouldn’t open archers against Turks, that I should try and do damage to Vikings and Chinese with an early timing, not from feudal, but from Dark even. So having to adapt in feudal is a part of the game and by no means there is no “strategic depth” in feudal already.
It’s a bonus like any other eco bonus, except most of them we see by default, every single game. Burgundian one we don’t for example, and people don’t have an issue with it. While it is capped at whatever upgrade it is, it pays off a lot quicker and Burgundians have a lot more incentives to go up to castle. The idea is the same though. Investment for something that pays off. Like researching horse collar early (as it’s not something that mainstream).
That’s one of the calcs I made in the other thread: It’s effectively equivalent to 2 relics:
2 Relics give 1 G / second. The other 1 G / S you could achieve by just selling your ressources at the market if you would use Villagers instead (from the higher pop efficiency).
That was one of the Theoretic evalueations I made there: The Feitoria shouldn’t be able to compensate a 1:4 relic deficit. In such a situation the Feitoria would only lead to an economic equivalent of 3:4 relics.
I know that may sound a bit selfish or whatever but you should read my proposed Theorycrafted Feitoria. I put a lot of thoughts and even calculations how it would influence the portuguese boom into it.
There is a major difference of eco bonusses that apply automatically and strategic choices. Also the feitoria impossibly can be compared with these early eco bonusses. If you look at them carefully you see that they are actually minor bonusses in comparison of the eco a feitoria provides. And they are already quite strong and dominating. I hope that you now understand my concerns about adding it an age there is no compensation for other civs. It’s different in castle age as all other civs already have access to tcs but in feudal it’s critical.
It’s not comparable to a whole feitoria actually.
If anything that must be a heavily nerfed feitoria that gives like half the ressources the current one gives. Otherwise it’s basically impossible to balance it somehow.
And then it will just become meta to add that feitoria cause there is no “tradeoff” to be taken at that stage. It would just become the same kind of eco bonus as burgundians have: Investing early to have a stronger midgame eco. It wouldn’t be a “real” strategic decision to take, it would just be done as long as it is worth it.
So you want 2 gold per second, but a relic generates half a gold per second, and 2 relics give 1 gold per second, but a feitoria that generates 2 gold per second is equivalent to 2 relics?
I think that the concept of feitorias as primarily gold and stone generating buildings should be completely forgotten. I have had maybe 1 3 hour FFA in which the gold had ran out and I made feitorias to get extra and by the end I regretted it because I was constantly running out of wood, not gold. So I deleted feitorias and made more vils.
Feitorias should be a midgame economic boost for the Portuguese that put them on par with the other civs. Not a way to make them annoying to play against on Arena because they spam BBTs after you have ran out of gold.
For all I care, you could make them stop producing gold and stone once it runs out on the map, as that shouldn’t be the primary focus of this building. In addition to that, the idea of selling resources for gold in imp is laughable, especially from a building that already underperforms for its population cost.
I did read it. You can’t be investing in eco when you are going for an all in, that’s all I’m going to say. And if you are going to be booming you are better off making TCs. And if you will half boom half be aggressive, add 1 TC and techs (eco and military).
I don’t agree, there is a thing called recalculated economy in AoE3 and it factors in all the upgrades, buildings, villagers, trickles, etc. The same thing could be added to capture age in AoE2 to properly reflect whether a player has double bit axe or not. Then, if we take everything into this recalculated state of pure “how much resources are flowing into my bank”, then you can see that while the feitoria in feudal is not as straightforward as a free wheelbarrow or an extra villager, it’s not very different from bow saw and heavy plow for Burgundians.
Yeah, where all the other civs get extra villagers or working rates or better units, but somehow because it’s a building that gives resources it shouldn’t exist.
There is like… 1 civ which has no eco or military bonus in feudal and that’s the spanish, but they get cheaper blacksmith techs. So all civs have something going for them either economically or militarily.
Regardless, just because the game has had certain things for 20 years doesn’t mean we can’t change them, even on the conceptual level. We already did with the new DLC civs, and it’s great, we are seeing more variety than ever. So why not double down on it?
I already said that a feudal age feitoria would generate a fourth of what it currently does, or about 2 villagers worth, after a hefty gold and stone investment, and 120 seconds of build time (recalculated 40-60 resources if you want to look at things this way). Burgundians, for the 10 vils they have on wood, by getting bow saw get 2 vils for an investment of 75 food 100 wood. It’s even worse.
Have you been reading my posts at all?
The tradeoff is that you can’t go for a defensive tower, an early fletching, or for a faster castle with market abuse, further delayed by having to invest 125 gold. It is a strategic choice that will work against certain strats and civs, but not others.
Good point. I think this could be avoided if it had a stone cost of 100 or 150. Nobody would want to mine stone, then waste it on temporary buildings that don’t generate more stone, reducing the total number of TC’s and castles they could build.
Explanation for the difference just in the next sentence…
But it will ever be that super lategame win scenario. Once wood run out feitorias just win. And that’s actually fine to me cause… Well somebody has to win.
So we make ourselves illusions to design a feitoria that doesn’t give this very lategame win scenario.
But what we can do is to make it balanced before. And I would propose to make it a situational option in the midgame. A unique mid-term eco investment that allows for special plays only portuguese could pull of then. But nothing you are forced to, you could also possibly just fake it and go for boom or military instead.
I read the whole topic, I didn’t remember exactly who said what that’s why I put it in my own words. Sorry I didn’t remember it was you with this proposal.
I think if we would went this path the eco investment / benefit it is done with the burgundians would be a good comparison as it looks at it “works” there. I would just be careful with any bonusses that exceed an addition of effectively adding 3 vils in feudal.
But as I explained earlier I see it a bit critical as it may then just lead to the “meta” play of portuguese like it happened with burgundians (which is fine imo). But then I don’t get the reasoning why to add a whole building for such a minor thing that could be implemented way easier.
I think the Feitoria has it’s place even with the long-term eco benefits. It just needs to be tuned to be reasonable And I think at the same time it could open unique mid-game strats to the civ (as alternative to standard plays).
Well Portuguese have those earlier and cheaper. And every civ has Feudal Age archers and Skirmishers, even if they won’t be making them long term. The whole point is to avoid wood being run out on certain maps and provide slightly more than 1 relic worth of gold, so that you can build the odd siege unit or afford some upgrades.