Wild Feitoria idea

  1. Feitoria available to all civs.

  2. Feitoria costs 10 population space, 250w, 250g, and is limited to 1 Feitoria per player. Feitoria cannot be converted [to avoid the possibility of 1 player having 2 and the other player having 0 Feitorias].

  3. Feitoria produces 1 food, 1.6 wood and 0.6 gold per second. Feitoria DOES NOT produce any stone.

  4. Portuguese bonus: Feitoria available in Dark Age (can be built any time the player wants). Feitorias cost -20% gold.

What I want to achieve? This solves the problem of wood having run out on Islands map and gold run out in most land maps.

Notice that compared to the present amount, wood is produced much more and food is produced much less. This is because if you have wood, you can have food (via farms). More so, since Portuguese have early Feitoria, more wood helps with the ideal Portuguese army (Arbalesters + siege) and less food reduces the fast imp or fast castle potential.

That is a wild idea. Sounds similar to capturing a workshop on the map aftermath, which generate resources but not stone. Why change Feitorias at all? It could be interesting just to introduce these workshops and let any civ build one, possibly at the cost of population space as you mentioned.

I find the stone generation to be a unique aspect of the Portuguese, allowing them to build more defensive structures the longer a game lasts. They could keep current Feitorias as an option, maybe think of it as an improved workshop just like Malay have improved docks or Poles have improved mills.

The very idea of the Feitoria is a Portuguese trading outpost. Therefore, it inherently cannot belong to multiple civs. A building like the trade workshop on the other hand though… maybe there is a possibility there.

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Other Idea:
Every civ can build Trage Workshops (excep Portuguese, they keep the feitoria how it is) trade Workshop costs 150 wood and 10 pop space and can generate just gold but can be build already in castle age, need a mill to be build.

Removes civ identity.

I think that Portuguese should work around feitorias, not around castles organ guns and fast imps.

Hence why in my world Feitoria would be available in feudal, cost half res, pop and space, produce a quarter of what it does now, and either scale with ages, or have carrack double the rate.

Frankly, nobody cares about islands, we see them super rarely, on TG the games have trade and end before that anyway.

Feitoria being available to all civs will remove a layer of strategy and everyone will go for the thing that produces res and can’t be raised ASAP.

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I think Feitoria in Feudal would pose the same prob as the cuman extra TC: Either it’s totally OP or basically unusable. At least half of the community will always be disappointed.

But I made a Proposal how the Feitoria could be implemented in Castle Age as a unqiue play for the portuguese supporting mid-term all-in strats (like FImp) here.

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Unlike the cuman tc bonus, the Feitoria bonus is still useful in castle age

Not if it is such kind of a “nerfed” feitoria. TCs give so much more value in the long term, so if you want to oppose the common boom with a feitoria strat you need to have good arguments for that feitoria. Meaning there must be a time were the feitoria strat gives you much more available ressources than you would have with either goin all in or booming. That means that feitoria must provide a lot of ressources.
Otherwise people will always decide between an all in or full boom and in neither the mini feitoria has any site.

But ofc the mini feitoria could be very useful in feudal. The risk is just that it can easily be “too useful” as the other civs don’t have anything comparable to greater their economy at this stage of the game.
I mean nobody can really know what happens then, but imo we would just be on the safe side if we made it a castle age tool were it competes with the other eco building, the TC and can therefore be balanced way easier.

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Castle yes, but at that point you are already better off making TCs.

Then again, even at the height of the Cuman TC potential when it was built just 50% slower, there were better civs for booming- Slavs, Vikings, Celts, Khmer. Now Poles too.

As to whether the potential to add an expensive building (of which you would need to go to stone if you want to add more than one, it would pay off slowly, and in general it would be a strategy with which you either place one and play defensive at the start of feudal, or skip it and ignore the bonus completely, will be broken or too overpowered, because it won’t be something we see every game.

Vikings for example are super strong because they get the 3 hidden extra villagers for free every game as soon as they reach feudal. Then another huge boost in castle. Also wheelbarrow vils are harder to raid.

Other bonuses like the Cuman 2 TC or the Slav free supplies only come into play if you on purpose think about incorporating them into your strategy, so they aren’t as strong.

I think in fact that… a quarter of the current rates will be weak for what it’s worth in feudal. Going to castle faster than the portuguese in this situation and pushing them will be the winning strategy, same as with punishing a cuman 2 TC boom.

I don’t agree, frankly. Civs have their differences and a free wheelbarrow, a faster ageup resulting in 2 extra vils, having your lumberjacks work 15% faster (ending up being 1 vil on wood in dark and 2 in feudal, etc) are easier to quantify as bonuses, but we never think of them as this strong because we don’t see them working. Up until a certain level even I didn’t think much of overall eco differences and what it means that I am playing Spanish with Spanish economy (… nothing) against a Maya with a Mayan economy (… a lot).

Castle yes, but at that point you are already better off making TCs.

Then again, even at the height of the Cuman TC potential when it was built just 50% slower, there were better civs for booming- Slavs, Vikings, Celts, Khmer. Now Poles too.

As to whether the potential to add an expensive building (of which you would need to go to stone if you want to add more than one, it would pay off slowly), and in general it would be a strategy with which you either place one and play defensive at the start of feudal, or skip it and ignore the bonus completely, will be broken or too overpowered, because it won’t be something we see every game.

Vikings for example are super strong because they get the 3 hidden extra villagers for free every game as soon as they reach feudal. Then another huge boost in castle. Also wheelbarrow vils are harder to raid.

Other bonuses like the Cuman 2 TC or the Slav free supplies only come into play if you on purpose think about incorporating them into your strategy, so they aren’t as strong.

I think in fact that… a quarter of the current rates will be weak for what it’s worth in feudal. Going to castle faster than the portuguese in this situation and pushing them will be the winning strategy, same as with punishing a cuman 2 TC boom.

I don’t agree, frankly. Civs have their differences and a free wheelbarrow, a faster ageup resulting in 2 extra vils, having your lumberjacks work 15% faster (ending up being 1 vil on wood in dark and 2 in feudal, etc) are easier to quantify as bonuses, but we never think of them as this strong because we don’t see them working. Up until a certain level even I didn’t think much of overall eco differences and what it means that I am playing Spanish with Spanish economy (… nothing) against a Maya with a Mayan economy (… a lot).

As an added benefit, if we were to give Ports other options on closed maps, such as a feitoria boom, we could actually nerf their obnoxious strategies, such as double castle organ guns, that have plagued TG for a while, without all the Port mains crying a river.

I like a Feitoria rework so that’s is useful in earlier ages, but not early enough for the Feudal Age. It’d be broken in the same way Cumans are broken: Being one of two civs with the option to add more “Villager” production buildings, when the other 37 civs cannot, is so strong that Feudal Feitorias are always the opening move regardless of the civ matchup and map, and that’s boring. But I like a Castle Age Feitoria which works in such a way that it’s an alternative economy path to 3 TC’s, where the strong short-term economy bump but weak long-term sustainability supports 1 TC all-ins that synergizes with the Portuguese gold discount.

Although so that standard 3 TC’s are still competitive with 1 TC + Feitoria, the Portuguese should also get some tweaking to their research speed bonus, where the strength of standard Portuguese play is in smoother tech switches from faster research times + cheaper unit compositions.

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Except Cumans aren’t broken. Vikings, Franks, Mayans and Chinese are. As I iterated before, it is those small (or not so small) hidden, automatic boosts that are really strong- and I learned that from AoE3 where those are a lot more frequent. Not the “you have to take a huge risk, spend 275 wood and 100 stone for a second TC, delay your castle time by a ton, and adapt your entire strategy to this” ones. Or, 125 stone 125 gold.

I’m not arguing against a castle age feitoria either. Sure, I could take that. But at that point everyone would just be making TCs, except in some very particular cases. It would be easier to work around the rest of the civ balance around a feudal age eco potential for the Portuguese, since, as we all know, they don’t have an eco bonus, bar 20% cheaper units on the gold, and 1 extra vil on their way to castle age from the faster researched wheelbarrow.

I don’t think so, if the Feitoria was designed like I proposed it in my thread, it would payback in less than 4 minutes. Opposed to a TC that takes about 8 minutes to pay back (because of the needed farms and additional costs to produce vills). I think you underestimate how valueable it is that you don’t have to invest as much in your eco with the feitoria.
But ofc you need to make the choice if you prefer to have a good mid-term eco or want to go full boom instead. So it would definetely depend on your gameplan if you want to use it in castle age. And I think that’s exactly what we should aim for.

(btw the way I designed the feitoria there was also conciped as “easy to use and understand”. The amount of ressources provided were chosen so they can support 1 stable knight production or 1 TC + 1 Archery Range xbow production (except it’s gold instead of wood, but it’s equivalent in terms of vill time).)

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Okay, but I’m not calling Cumans broken by comparing it to what other civs can do. I’m calling Cumans broken by comparing it to what Cumans can do. And what Cumans break is my fun in discovering little nuances that might grow into new ways of looking at a civ, map, unit, etc., because it’s the same thing with Cumans in every game, in every map, in every civ matchup. For in comparison to other opening moves, a 2nd Feudal TC wins every time, regardless of the huge risk of having to adapt your entire strategy to this. Because, just like other civs with strange early game economy starts show, i.e., Chinese, Mayans, it’s certainly possible to leverage skill and knowledge into a consistent and permanent boost with a strange start that’s so large that civs with bonus Feudal Age land economy buildings would become “One Trick Pony” civs by their economy boost, like the Cumans are now. And for a game that’s popular with its community partly for diversity both in and out of matches, having more One Trick civs feels like an antithesis to fun, regardless of how those civs perform in practice.

And that’s all I have to say about the matter, because I have a hunch we agree more than we disagree, but we’ll end up arguing over ‘how’ we reach our agreements.

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so basically, the meta would-be fast castle into 10 trade workshops that will eventually be deleted as vills are created. This would also be a huge buff to Malians and Celts.

I just want to mention that portuguese are already a very strong closed map civ.
If the feitoria would be good enough to make their standard boom better, this would pose huge problems on these maps as ports would have it way easier to boom up and get to their strong lategame.

Imo the only way to implement the feitoria was to enable certain mid-game all-in strats other civs don’t have access to. If the feitoria would challenge the standard boom the civ will become OP on these closed map types.

You are ignoring a very important point. The point when you have clicked up but haven’t reached castle age! You can invest in for the building which can pay off definitely in some time!

Yeah and the fix is that they are not generating any stone

550 wood is an enormous cost for early castle age for when you want to use it.

I don’t, but I also think that Portuguese aren’t that reliant on food. The only issue with any feudal age feitoria I see is the food production rate, which will enable you to quickly go to castle, while not investing as much in farms.

I more of see it as a, feitorias being used as a midgame building, which at the later stages might get deleted in favor of villagers.

Due to certain limitations with aoe2 design, we can’t make build limits for buildings (except TCs, they make sense), and neither can we make a “villager cap” for the Portuguese. Therefore a clear function like the Dutch in aoe3 is not possible.

Still, I do believe that there is a place for such mechanics in aoe2, seeing the more liberal approach the devs have recently taken with civ design, including straight up borrowing from aoe2’s not so loved, but still widely respected younger brother.

Sure, except if I actually want to go on the aggressive I won’t be making feitorias because I need an university and ballistics, or cav armor and husbandry, or thumb ring and a forward siege.

The concept of investing resources for a small marginal gain that will get erased in 15 minutes is a bad idea.

I don’t know exact timings, but from a random recent video from The Viper:

He hits castle with 37 vils at about the 21 minute mark (not too slow, not too fast for the top level, with moderate feudal investment) and immediately places 2 more TCs. They will have paid off at minute 29, with your calculation. Now, the thing is, villager eco is good long term. Therefore this is the eco setup that he wants more and more as the game goes longer, that’s why he is investing in it.

If he was to build feitorias which will get obsolete by the time they hit imp, at about the 40 minute mark, they will have paid themselves off, but now he has to think again about going for yet another boom, this time with villagers.

Point I’m making here is, if you are going to invest in something, you will always want to invest in the long term option. Which is villagers in the castle age. In feudal and in imp feitorias actually make sense because A. there is no eco advantage for the Ports in feudal and B. in imp they can be used to outlast your opponent. When there is a better and more sustainable economic option in the castle age, nobody would build feitorias still.

Except recently I have seen Cumans go for a second TC at the competitive level once, compared to when we saw them in redbull with the scouts into archery ranges strat that was executed a dozen times.

And in team games the Cuman boom is just as good as any other boom- whether Cumans go for eco in their own unique way, or Poles go for it in their way is exactly the same concept-wise. Except you are getting annoyed because it’s not the generic 3tc that we see every single time.

Mind you, the feudal rams are much more annoying in TG (arena/bf/hideout) than the 2tc boom.

The point of exactly Chinese and Mayans is that their eco is so strong they can do literally anything in the game. With the eco they have, if Mayans had redemption they could go xolotl warriors and still win the game for all I know.

Cumans on the other hand are more versatile since the -75 wood. And it’s good. And Ports wouldn’t lose any options with FC organs still being on the table, drush FC xbow, fast imps, everything really. In fact, they would have more options if they had a feudal feitoria.

It’s what I said too. Feitorias earlier in the game will positively impact game balance and diversity, which, at the end of the day, we all want.

Annoyingly strong because of how good organ guns are on arena as an immobile unit that counters siege and knights too.

But if Ports could do anything besides that, if they had the eco for it with feitorias, we could nerf organ guns in the castle age and see a positive development for the variety of strategies they have. And games would become more interesting too.

A feudal age feitoria is more relevant to castle age all ins than a castle age feitoria is. By that time a feudal one will have paid off and will be a net benefit to your economy, which is exactly what you want with all ins.

But that would require feitoria being available in the feudal age, no? It’s the same as cumans building their TC on the way to castle. Cuman TCs take 275 seconds to build until they reach castle age though, and reaching castle age takes 160 seconds. So not all that relevant, considering you won’t even have your TC up by then unless you put 5 vils on it. And feitorias take 120 seconds to build (I think with feudal age feitorias this should stay, so they take longer to pay off), which still is quite a lot.

The intention of the Trade Workshop is to get a gold source when you have no allies or other way more to get gold, not to rush into castle age or to delete it afterwards, it is a good building if you run out of gold sources, and the income is not so huge, when you think you still need other vills to produce food and wood, in my idea i said only generate gold, the other resource generation stay exclusive for the feitoria to keep it unique.
The trade Workshop is considered as a late game building, but everyone can have free mind and imagination about, this are just ideas or concepts, or suggestions for a personally modification.