With the Chinese village, it can become a very safe civilization

With those well located villages, I think that China will hardly be able to be raided. It must also be said that the Granary should lower the price of wood somewhat.

China is one of the deepest civilizations, perhaps they are rushing by saying that it will look bad without even deepening the meta.

Look what happened to the cries with Delhi months ago, which then became a civ that got banned from tournaments. You have to see what the metagame will be like and if you have to adjust it, adjust it.


U are never gonna spend so much wood early on to place villages (which still dont have any deffence)
Not to even mention fact that HPs of villages are gonna be decreased

No we are not … its 90% nerfs and 10% bufss in reality meanwhile almost all other civs. are getting clear buffs and advantages … I love china … am China main … I did not play them during Fire lancer or siegeball meta but since that I really enjoy them … But after this patch with IO changes and super-useless one-tier lowered dynasty buildings +(super hars nerf for late game = pagodas) they will become 100% worst civ.

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I only know that you have to let the meta evolve and try different BOs other than 2 TCs and Dynasty directly.

If you build a village (knowing that you can also advance in age in a correct time) you have a population for almost 10 minutes approx. Yes, it is true that the HP of the village must be maintained and the Granary must reduce its cost, things as they are. We will see how Chinese players can play them.

I agree, village helps Chinese from raid. But it is very conditional since it only works for horseman.
In the meanwhile, nerfs to IO just makes Chinese not playable.
The play who don’t play Chinese may not understand how big nerf for the following two changes:

  1. IO training time incrased from 20s to 30s.
  2. IO costs from 150F to 100F and 50G.

In reality, any one change applied on Chinse I will consider it a huge nerf. Now Chinese have 2.
Someone mentioned Chinese should have use other BOs, but I should say with these 2 changes, Chinese doesn’t have choice but to boom only. How can a civ play other strategies if in feudal they neither have military advantages nor eco advantages.


China is naturally defensive bc of bbq. Having village in dark age is niche but potentially efficient. And yes IO got nerfed…but they are still very strong. Example standard rates for gold gathering by a base vil is 40 gold/min. The IO take 1.5vil que time so it needs to produce resources equal to 1.5vil. So if the IO can return 20gold per 20s or supervise 8+ vils the IO is pulling its weight…but the IO WILL FAR EXCEED THAT MIN just in the first 2min of the game?!!

If you didn’t waste any tax by dropping off res at the TC you should have at least 45 tax total among your drop offs. It will not take an IO 20 seconds to hit all your drop off points but lets be funny and say it takes the IO 25 sec to walk to all locations and come bk to supervise your mill. That’s 45 gold/25s which is equal to 2.7vil gathering gold!!!

Next pagoda technically got nerfed but functionally got buffed!! Nobody but team games had to resources to go ming dynasty!!! And in both PUP and live build case you need to already collect the relics!!

The granary is overpriced…but not utterly useless as it is possible and likely to float wood of all resources (IMO it’s the one resources that is most flexible to float given it utility).

Also it should have always been a thing but at least now it the PUP it is a thing and you don’t lose the ability to build previous dynasty units/buildings.

I am still an advocate for more china buffs such as yuan and ming dynasty age up discounts OR no dynasty discounts but unlocking the ming dynasty should grant you to keep ALL the benefits of each previous dynasties unlocked: 30% los on scouts, 35% faster vil que, 15% movement speed.

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Yes because going for (close to useless YUAN) is more viable than going straigh for imperial right? :slight_smile:

Am getting into ming dynasty often even on 1600+ELO in 1v1s since I know once I get there I won the game …

Pagodas in YUAN (which are nerfed by 50%) are incredibly horrible idea and pagodas will become close to useless … I cant see a single point why to go for YUAN instead of IMP (where u can get way better eco tech than u get res. from pagoda itself)

So yeah idea was good to have pagoda during late castle since u collect relics in castle … In reality its total non-sense and from upcoming patch China will be completely dead and I say that as someone who hated them for FL abuse and mass siege game-breaking issues. Now they will be in horrible state even if u consider how significant buffs other civs are getting … :face_vomiting: :face_vomiting: :face_vomiting: :face_vomiting:

Yes but U NEED TO SPEND extra 50 gold in dark age which is super-horrible for China since u HAVE TO go for mining gold otherwise u would colect those 150gold untill forever which means u need to spend additional 50 wood already in dark age and u are 10 seconds behind becaus of training time …

Biggest issue with China right now: Super slow and bad feudal age? solution? Make them even worse :slight_smile: wow … such a great idea … menawhile other civs got amazing buffs … not to even mention that reverted nerf from 200—>150% which is super stupid as well …

I dont know who but somebody 100% has some problems with this civ. from Relic side …

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pagado didn’t get nerf by 50%? it went from 400 res/min to 250/res per min (37.5% nerf) and a dynasty sooner.
Also yuan dynasty cost half that of imperial upgrade? It’s situational when you can benefit for going yuan instead of waiting for twice the resources to go imp? You 1600 so I know you understand this?

IO definitely got NERFED, I suppose it was done because they didn’t like the double IO opener in dark age just building lumber and mill esp. with the increase base tax collection of 40 gold. This nerf forces us to take longer to feudal if we skip the mining camp. Also IMO they made the IO take 30s to que b/c the 20s build allowed the IO to get a “free” 0.2 upon creation (something no villager can ever do).

Just like I understant a fact that going for imp is MUCH MORE better than waste 50% of its res. for going YUAN which gives you now what? over-nerfed pagodas? wowowow

it gives you pagoda, 15% all biology units speed (both military and eco buff), and fire lancers, hardly uselss?

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Hardly useless? Have you ever played Chinese?
Did you ever see any one build fire lancer? Even in 2v2, 3v3, 4v4 I never saw them after they got nerfed.
Did you ever see granary? Maybe only in the game that lasts more than 40 mins they are meaningful
So basically Yuan only gave 2 bonuses, movement speed and a landmark.
We know that landmark is nearly useless in 11, and 15% movement speed takes 1800 resources to unlock, what a great deal. Also, this also means you lost 35% vil training time reduction. What a great deal !


Actually I have seen high level players go yuan for example szamali (you can go watch his china games via aoe4world.com video finder); Fire lancer are NOT what they use to be but they are still exceptional raiders especially when you know where to hit and run; also losing the 35% villager production of song dynasty isn’t a big deal IFF u went 2 TC along with song since by the time you unlock song you’ll be well beyond 80+ vil; so the 1800 res gives you 15% movement speed aka yam network (eco/military buff), pagoda (even though its nerfed its still 250 res/min/relic up to 3 relics essentially HRE regnitz), and fire lancers hit and run raids/siege.

Ya’ll too hyperbole with yall takes; could it be stronger and cheaper? I think it should be and time will tell if they ever adjust it; but baby steps.

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now: Monastery 100g/min pagado:cost 150w get other 300res/min
pup: Monastery 100g/min pagado:cost 150w get other 150res/min (50%nerf)
do you know what is Opportunity Cost?

Over-nerfed pagoda for which u still need to colect relics

Yes this is good but worthy in 1v1 for a 1800 resources? 100% not

Which are nothing special … all others dynasty units are more viable … Zhugenu in Feudal , Grens in late imp are 10x better.
Actually FL are close to completely useless since u usually play China on closed maps so u cannot just yolo with them somewhere and try to snipe vills on exposed res. or try to snipe landmark …

So yeah … If you ask me to spend 1800 res on useless YUAN or 3600 for going into imp it would be very easy choice for me :slight_smile:

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Thanks for support buddy … am trying to say this guy that all the dynasty building changes are completely non-sense and useless but I guess only decent China players or players with hundreds of games with them actually know how bad the supposed ,buffs, are …

please do not compare infinitive res (food) and very ez res. to gather (wood) with gold which is hardest to get specially in late game if u are not English right?

Pagodas are NO WAY close to Regnitz even now and they will be close to useless after the nerf

Right now If u know I am about to have super-late game with China I go for Ming in 100% of cases because two things = Grenadiers = simply best unit in the game which has no real counter + Pagodas … and as me and everybody with at least a bit clear vision of Chinese civ. said its close to useless going for YUAN only to get almost useless unit / overnerfed pagoda or that speed movement (which is really cool and I usually end my super-late game in YUAN since I love sprinting grenadiers + buff to eco) but still … its 100% USELESS


After doing some geometry and some rough rounding it turns out proper orientation of the granaries can net you upwards of 300 resources saved? :laughing:. That’s not bad, but the upfront cost is still too steep IMO.

The orientation i found most efficient and most potent was to orient the 3 Granaries stacked like a block pyramid with only 1 row of farms separating the granaries and one row of farms outlining the granaries. You’d end up with:

11 farms with 10% buff
10.5 farms with 20% buff
6.5 farms with 30% buff

For a effective 33.15 farms, or an average of 18.4% buff for 28 farms.

If we compare total costs associated with the granaries setup vs the same effective total using standard farms and mills we get:

  • 750w + 28x75w +28x50f = 4250 resources
  • 5x50w + 34x75 + 34x50f = 4500 resources

A slightly less potent configuration yet apparently the design they aimed for is to have 1 row of farms outline each granary then conjoin the 3 granaries in block pyramid form for a total of 36 farms but effectively ~42 farms. You end up saving 300 resources (the cost of 6 villagers!) over the alternative however the average buff per farm drops down to 16.66-16.8% for the 36 farms.

It’s not uncommon to have 40 villagers on farms late game in which case using the Abbasid 15% farm buff that would equate to an effective 46 standard farms WHICH the original 15% buff on granaries using the 36 farm configuration was JUST shy of that effective 46 farms standing at an effective 45!?? So the original trio granary config was STRONGER than English farms in castle age??? If you want to optimize the granary configuration further you can add a total of 9 more farms in the 3 double granary windows to increase your average buff per farm up to 17.4%+ it will also cost you 3 mills if you want to retain the efficient drop offs. For a grant total cost of: 45 villagers + 45 farms + 3 mills + 3 granaries = 45x50f + 45x75w + 3x50w + 3x250w = 6525 resources

The granary effects and cost have grown on me and the math has made it clear that the structure is a GOOD (not great) building. Per 12 farms efficiently place around 1 granary you’ll spend a total of 1150 wood (250w + 12x75w) and need 12 villagers. Meanwhile to EFFICIENTLY place the almost equivalent 13 farms around 2 mills you’ll need 1075 wood (2x50w + 13x75w) and need 13 villagers? So in the end by comparison you would have spent 75 wood extra on the singular granary setup (and if you consider the cost of the villager difference only 25 resources etc).

All in all the granaries HAVE TO BE STACKED in a proper orientation in order to be the bonus to the civ it was designed to be!! Given the math above once all 3 are stacked you effectively have 36 farms at an average of 16.66-16.8% which puts those 36 farms on par with Abbasid House of Wisdom Agriculture upgrade on 37 farms.

While GOOD what would make it great is either a granary castle buff that can be researched to return back to 15% per granary?? Or a buff right off the back of 12.5% per granary?? Or a cost reduction per granary of 100 wood which would outright make each granary more cost effective compared to the alternative 13 farms + 2 mills.

HRE MAA get a heavy attack bonus? Delhi Tower elephants get a Heavy attack bonus? …

Zhuge Nu: fairly decent late feudal units IMO should get a Castle heavy attack bonus!! OR better get a FEUDAL heavy attack bonus!?

Say once the technology is researched you get

+1 vs Heavy in feudal
+2 vs Heavy in castle
+3 vs Heavy in Imperial

Next idea.

Chinese Dynasties cost a lot… do not reduce the cost INSTEAD allow China to retain all the buffs from the previous unlocked dynasties. 30% LOS on scouts is useful the ENTIRE GAME! So is 15% movement speed and 10% military health; 35% reduction in villager training time is decent for starting to boom but also functional in a remassing (not too different from swabia …ok different but same concept). Why should unlocking one buff means losing another? What other civ has to pay as much to unlock it’s own perks as much as china? OUR dynasty cost 6000 collectively? AT the very least allow us to switch between dynasty buffs with some sort of cooldown between swapping like a 60s cd? or 120s cd?