Because making them dependent on gold units and making weak in Late Game trash war like real history, Ottoman Empire entered a period of decline (1683-1792) after their initial expansions (1453-1566). Game imitated real history in Turks and also in Byzantines. I would explain Byzantines afterwards.
As for actual topic, Turks has at least Heavy Camel but not giving get access to Elite Skirmisher is simply making them weak against archers. Turks is only civ that hasn’t Elite Skirmisher. Did you think that this is coincidence. Of course, purpose of this preference is preventing Turks gunpowder units becoming OP.
Actually you can. They had knights and cavalier with full upgrades and free light cav upgrades…
Furthermore if the goal is weak against archers why fo they lack even the pikeman upgrade?
No, just being a new idea doesn’t make something great
I could propose giving franks free instant paladin upgrade upon researching cavalier. Does that make it a great idea? No.
Knight is only soft counter to crossbow and Cavalier even isn’t counter to arbalest. You need Paladin or Skirmisher to counter archers. Devs didn’t give Skirmisher or Paladin for simple reason, making Turks civ weak against archers.
There is no civ that don’t have Mangonel, also Turks lacks Onager and Siege Engineer for same reason: making Turks weak against archers. They turn’s their mind’s with giving +1 PA to Scout-line.
It is a bit late for AOE2 but Devs applied most familiar informations such as Janissaries, cannons, Ottoman dominated European battlefield in a short time etc. but they lost their power very soon. In fact, Ottoman domination in Europa finished in 1565 Siege of Malta. Ottoman continued to be formidable force until 1683. Importance of 1683 is that Ottoman Empire even lost its threatening force with this defeat.
Devs could remove Heavy Camel upgrade just like Cumans but they chose to give in order to counter cavalry but they don’t give Skirmisher, Paladin, Onager in order to have Turks exposed to archers.
Well castle age still doesn’t fit the narrative yet the lack of counters kicks in there.
You realise the Turks were designed in 1999 and Cumans in 2019 right? And not by the same people? Before Cumans all civs that had camels could buy the heavy upgrade.
I mentioned siege rams precisely because they help against archers too.
Also why make a civ that is deliberately super weak to one of the most common units in the game? Makes zero sense from a balance or gameplay perspective
There was Persians, Saracens, Byzantines and Turks. Saracens was camel civ, therefore it is normal to have Heavy Camel. Persians had very lmiited tech tree before and now in addition they mostly rely on Stable, thus it is also normal to have Heavy Camel. Devs could remove Heavy Camel upgrade from Turk but they take all anti archer units from Turks. It is unnecessary to argue so stubbornly, Devs closed all anti archer option to Turks on purpose. Do you think that Devs didn’t plan all along, of course they knew Turks tech tree very well since the beginning.
Well since we are discussing AoK, we are speaking of the time where ES didn’t know boar luring is a thing and thought that gunpowder is so OP everything was locked behind a second tech. Which is why Turks have half cost gunpowder tech, if anything this is better to criticize than light cav bonuses. Especially since the removal of the BBC/HC tech buffed them a lot. After observing what players did ES could learn from that and buff Turks (hussar, janissary stat change, bloodlines, artillery unique tech, etc) in a way that could let them still not have elite skirm and pikemen, since no other civ had this characteric. +1 PA just fits right in there, even though it happened muuuuuch later and was done by other people.
Also holding onto the heavy camel upgrade isn’t doing to help much, I could do the same with siege ram and nothing would go forward.
The only thing that’s wrong here is your understanding of the game. What do you think happens if a defensive goes forward and puts castles in opponents face? Right it’s offensive. Byzantines has one of the strongest pushes in the game. Yes it’s a low mobility version of offense but it’s still offense. And Byzantines shines here.
Not sure what you mean but that’s precisely the reason why turks are good vs archer civs. Most of them have no couter to their extremely tanky hussar cwv archer composition. Why do you think turks vs britons is a civ win on arena nowadays? You can struggle in the mid game but once you get to your comp there isn’t anything archer civs can do.
He meant that ES intended Turks to be weak vs archers specifically but that’s not really accurate else Turks wouldn’t have siege ram or good cav. It’s pretty obvious the lack of pike and elite skirm are tied to each other.
Jeez I re-read what you said to try and agree with something but I just can’t. You remove half of the Bohemian’s good techs and bonuses and give them a anti-cav unit that is as slow as a Teutonic knight while being worse than TK and serjeants, you say Briton range is OP but then give them the ability to go paladin+archers easily while still leaving them the free +1 in castle age. Also in what world giving a civ the ability to mass CA in feudal and have them upgrade for free in castle age is fine? And that Poles change. You think their current bonuses are OP but then casually give them a better version of Magyars scouts plus a UU that’s a better version of the 2019 steppe lancer. Then we have huskarl catas cuz infantry civs don’t deserve to win ig, you say Spanish late game is the best in the game, so you buff it anyway, I think you already know what people think of the Chinese take, then you say Tatars can only do CA… then mention keshiks right away. The take on Franks is worse: they literally have a bonus called: “UU factories are 25% cheaper” and said UU happens to be better than both their xbows and hand cannons. So much for “unique military units don’t matter”. And wtf are you on with Aztecs, they have the rare eagle warrior, both their unique techs give big bonuses on their military, and their monks are the single best in the game, so definitely attracting players.
So there are only two good things left: Tatar steppe lancers are indeed overshadowed by their other options and making Cuman mercenaries reusable could be cool.