Worst designed civs of AOE 2?

Age of Empires II: DE II - Discussion
81

I vote Poruguese, Italians and sicillians. If 4th option available, indians will be my choice.

Portuguese is supposed to be a gunpowder civ, but they rely more on xbow and cavalier rather than HC or organ gun with 20% gold discount.

Italians archer is quite generic until you get pavise. Early to mid game, portuguese and koreans, non-archer civs, get better archer. Pre-nerf vikings, japanese, malay and byz archers are not much weaker than italian archer.

Sicilians is hard to counter with their bonus and UT. If I remember correctly, they were orginally designed as infantry civ but not cavalry civ. The UT is changed and their identity also change.

Indians is supposed to be camel and gunpowder civ. Camels get nerf because of TG. Imperial Camel die hard to archers in imperial age. Gunpowder +1 range is nice but not enough to compete with other ranged unit. Their late game fall off quite a bit and has to rely on heavy cavalry archer instead of HC. The transition to heavy cavalry archer is not smooth at all.

2 Likes
82

My heavy pikeman is decent unit. I forgot to add 1 melee range, I think for this reason you think it is bad unit. 50f 40g, 60/80 (elite) hp, 6/8 (elite) attack, 3/3 / 4/4 armor, +6/+8 vs Cavalry unit is very good unit. It is better than this Wagons. Bohemians has OP eco, it need nerf either way or another. +4 PA 40% faster Monks is better than this 100f Monks. Main tactic will be HC, BBC, Monks harass enemy and when cavalry chase this units, heavy pikeman save from enemy cavalry like in real history. Of course, it is opponent unit to spear-line, therefore I removed halberdier upgrade to imply spear-line is Feudal Age-early Castle Unit while heavy pikeman mid Castle Age-Mid Imperial unit.

Why non-bloodline Paladin and Hussar is OP. Spanish has bloodlines Paladin and Spanish can’t use Paladin because it has weak eco. I nerfed +2 range early Imperial OP Arbalester, it is only +1 range now, it is enough nerf. Non-Bloodlines Paladin isn’t huge buff.

Historically British ha both good light cavalry and heavy cavalry. They deserve to have Paladin and Hussar.

40 hp, 5 attack, 3 range Steppe Archer die to Feudal Age archer and Skirmisher (I think Skirmisher should have +2 attack to CA like Elite version). Cumans has no eco bonus, I proposed to remove Feudal Age TC and give this Steppe archer to compensate nerf.

Poles Scout-line is not better than Magyar Scout-line. You are missing that Magyar Scout also is 15% cheaper. Poles scout has only same attack as Magyars, in Feudal Age, making attack upgrade isn’t effective due to high 150f cost which is equal to 1.88 scout.

I thought so hard to not make Winged Hussar OP. It was really hard, therefore I make cost very high, 50f 80g and it has 3+2 PA in Imperial Age, therefore it struggle against archers especially in team games. It get 33% trample damage like before. Comparing to Elite Steppe Lancer, my Elite Winged Hussar has +50% hp (150 hp), 18% attack (13 attack), +0.5 range (1.5 range), 33% trample damage and +8, +10 vs gunpowder units.

This Huskarl Cataphract 3, 4 (elite) PA but it has 100, 125 hp, 1.25 speed and bonus damage reduction only apply to spear-line. Camel, Kamayuk, Mameluke, Genoese Crossbowman can kill this Cataphract. Cata can be countered by unique units, it is not huge problem, even Camel is rare unit like 9/39 civ has Camel I don’t remember now. Cataphract shouldn’t be countered by archers because archers are too common unit in the game. it is unhistorical and bad design, main reason why Cata is used is countering archers in history, Persians (GöktĂŒrk Khaganate) and Byzantines (Bulgar Khaganate) countered Eurasian cavalry archers with Cataphract.

I think Devs should follow same approach as they follow for Condottiero. Condottiero was firstly remove all anti infantry bonus attacks but they changed to only apply against gunpowder units because Condottiero’s meant to counter only gunpowder units not all anti infantry units.

I said this:

" Give early eco bonus, buff elite Conquistador, remove Supremacy and give " Grande y FelicĂ­sima Armada tech give +50 hp to cannon galleon instead".

Buffing Elite Conq is necessary because it is simple garbage unit. It need buff to be viable at least. +50 hp Cannon Galleon is only buff to Sea Power which Spanish became in 16-17th century, removing supremacy is convenient nerf. Spanish villager need to fight like normal military units like Flemish Militia in order to not get mad while trying to control villagers. I think it is bad tech overall, it is OP and it is unnecessary because Spanish has FU trash units and gold discount from Blacksmith tech. With these 2 bonuses Bonuses, Spanish is best late game unit in the game. Supremacy is over kill tech and not fun to play due to pathing issue.

Neither 25% cheaper castles nor free farm bonuses will attract new or old players. Paladin attract people sure but it has generic Knight and only +12 hp Paladin. 22 Persian Paladin beat 20 Franks Paladin for instance. Franks of course is still better than Persians thanks to better eco, however, generic Knight don’t that much, +12 hp Paladin only move in in Mid Imperial Age and it became garbage in a short time when gold run out. It is boring that you create 50 Paladins in a game, and that is it, you can’t create more because there is no gold left. It isn’t enjoyable.

Byzantines has fine defense but terrible push. There is bunch of criteria for pushing strength:

  • Good siege units (all Byzantines siege is below average due to lacking siege engineering).
  • Pop efficient units because enemy outproduce you with his base productions, cost efficiency is for defense. Byzantines has only cost-efficiency and it has only one pop efficient unit which is Cataphract.
  • High Pierce Armor units because enemy will encounter you with archers and Castle, tower fires. Cata has low PA as everyone know.
  • Strong units when massed, at least Byzantines satisfy this need which is Arbalest. However, Arbalester doesn’t synergize with Cataphract because both counter same units which is infantry, countered by same unit which is heavy Cavalry and both cost too much gold, they are discordant double.
83

I think the results of the poll are very interesting. Not the results I was expecting.

Could be cool if the devs took note, but I don’t know what they could do with it.

84

Depends on how you interpret the poll results.

For instance, one could observe that, with the exception of Goths, most of the “winning” civs in this poll are these that have been (relatively) recently added to the game. The four DE-expansion civs are among the top 9.

This could be taken as a message that gimmicky civ-mechanics are not overly appreciated, and without them coming up with distinct civ-designs is getting gradually harder and harder. A consequence might be to be very careful with adding even more civs.

1 Like
85

Dawn of the Dukes civs are good, the LotW ones might be more of a problem. And at the very least, all four civs are better than any other in one regard. They have unique castles!

86

Celts for me is a boring civ, no versatility. The civ bonuses were meant for Hoang rushes and “this” was a good design that no other civ have so many bonuses kicking on early Castle (like Hera once said) but
 the tech tree is bad like Goths

1 Like
87

Differently from Goths, Celts have extremely good siege and good defences. Also their wood bonus is way stronger than the instant Loom.
Said that, yes they have bad archers and cavalry as well.

88

A slow anti-cav unit with 1 range. That seems familiar. Ahh! There is an UU like that called “Kamayuk” available for Incas.
Just be honest, if someone else proposed this exact copy paste version of “Kamayuk”, what would your response be?

1 Like
89

I make them similar to Kamayuk on purpose, it is 20% slower, less bonus attack against cavalry (+6, +8), but it has great armor which is 3/3 / 4/4 like real history pikeman. I imitated historical pike and shot combo.

Every unit is variation of each other. TK is Champion with high MA, Huskarl is Champion with high PA, Woad Raider is Champion with high speed, JW is Champion with bonus attack against infantries. There is no problem with another Pikeman unit has 1 range and bonus attack against cavalry.

90

A unit with 2 range could be interesting too. I don’t think there is any unit between Kamayuk/Lancer’s 1 range and Throwing Axe/Mameluke’s 3.

1 Like
91

I’d like to see kamayuks with 2 range and 2 versions for the pike in imp - one with 1 additional range (billman) and the current halberdier.
I also would like to have a heavy infantry lategame unit, but “heavy pikeman” sounds silly tbh.

We have options like “Landsknecht” or “Gewalthaufen” from the HRE respectively swiss armies that served as mercenaries in all europe. But IMO this heavy inf shouldn’t have extra range, as this could easily make it OP (look at kamayuks) cause of the way the other units are designed.

And to close it all, I would also like to see “true” winged hussars as a UU with 2 range aswell.

92

It’s a lot less interesting, and a lot less useful than the Hussite Wagon it. It’s also a lot less unique. Also, you realize that if you replace the UU you are literally going to destroy the Bohemian Campaign, all of missions 3-6 will be badly messed up if you swap the unique unit. The Hussite Wagon was given for a reason. It’s cool, unique, and historically accurate. Please don’t try and replace it with some boring Teutonic Knight - Kamayuk Hybrid with some slight variation. It won’t be as cool, and it won’t be as fun to use. Slow units are painful, Bohemians already have good anti-cav options, the Hussite Wagon is meant to be their anti-archer. Please just leave them alone.

3 Likes
93

Hussite Wagon is equal to Siege Ram. High PA, weak against other sieges. Also it has very low damage output. Siege Ram at least destroy buildings, HW even can’t do this. Its low attack and speed make them too boring unit. You are so lucky that you are managing to enjoy HW. This heavy pikeman is very enjoyable because it support Bohemians HC, Houfnice, Monk push. Heavy Pikeman defend your pushing army from Infantry, Cavalry and Archers. HW’s only job is soaking arrow, that is all job of this Unique unit. Halberdier also does same job as heavy pikeman but it is too vulnerable to archer, therefore heavy pikeman definitely would be useful unit in Bohemians Army.

Being cool is relative, I think it looks trash. Historical Hussite Wagon defend arbalesters, musketeers from cavalry charges, in game it defend from archer which is unhistorical. Hussite Wagon could be used by Hussies firstly but all armies used this field fortification (it consist of chained waggons shaped as circle to save your troops from cavalry charge. These waggons are none other than simple dray charts) after they encountered Hussites. Magyars took Hussite Wagons from Hussites and Magyars used against Ottomans in 1444 Battle of Varna, Ottoman learned this technique from Magyars and used in a lot of battles successfully like 1473 Battle of Otlukbeli. All European kingdoms used these Wagon fort aka Wagenburg (HRE, Rus Tsardom, Poles in conclusion every civ) etc


94

They have a high damage output. They have like 20 attack with their main projectile, as well as the secondary projectiles. It also fits into the Bohemian comp better than your unit, because you put them at the front to tank and shoot stuff, then put HC or Arbs with Houfnices behind them. Your unit, if it counters infantry, is kind of irrelevant, because the ranged units inherently in the Bohemian comp already do that. Also, infantry unique units are normally just irrelevant and/or boring to use. The Hussite Wagon is something unique, and you want to replace it with an unnecessary Kamayuk/Teutonic Knight hybrid thing, to counter cav, which the Bohemian Halb already does, to counter infantry, which their Arbs and Hand Cannons already do, and to create a weakness to archers, which the Hussite Wagon covers. Therefore, your unit is pointless.

1 Like
95

Ok, here is a more telling statistic. It looks like you have 0 liked posted proposing this change, and no-one, at all, has agreed with you. This suggests, that people actually don’t want your unit :scream:, and would rather have the Hussite Wagon. Whereas posts that are trying to negate your arguments seem to be racking up likes and agreement. Please stop trying to change civs that in ways they don’t need to be changed.

2 Likes
96

HW hit very slow, therefore it has very low damage output in reality.

When enemy charge with huge numbers like 45 Shotel Warriors instantly, Heavy Pikeman could be great meat shield in front of HC or more important Houfnice. Current Bohemians need HW against archer and pikeman against cavalry, this heavy pikeman cover Bohemians from both threat.

As for entertainment, old Organ Gun is far more entertaining than this Hussite Wagon, they are similar unit but Organ Gun is better designed unit. Devs drop back in quality with this Bohemians civ. Expensiveness of houfnice upgrade is also bad design considering BBC is used in game verly low numbers. Houfnice upgrade start to pay its cost when BBC number became like 9 numbers. In reality it is very unlikely that one play reach these number of BBC.

1 Like
97

The unit itself notwithstanding, have you actually played the Bohemian campaign?

98

Fire ship line. They have 2.49 range although UI says only 2.

2 Likes
99

For me the worst designed civi is venice because tgey did not add them ingame while kingdom of naples is normans.

On a more related note the reading about the turks civi literally gave me a headache.

100

In what world do byzantines have a terrible push? 11 A push usually relies on having a timing advantage (Byzantines have cheap imp), on having good siege units (they have bbc and siege ram which are most important here, lacking siege engineers isn’t a huge deal its too expensive as an early imp tech eiether way) and having good archer and halbs (they have all that). Also you have more hp on castles which is huge for a push. What you write doesn’t make any sense. Early imp push is precisely one of the strats Byzantines excel with.

8 Likes