Seriously? (And yes I would complain as well if this wasnt about Venice, this just feels dumb)
Happy new year to you too.
It is temporary early Imp push, there is a lot of civs has better pushing army in early Imp like Turks, Burgundians, Ethiopians, Britons, Teutons, Bulgarians, Bohemians etc. These civs maintain their pushing power while Byzantines falling behind due to missing upgrades (blast furnace and Siege Engineering). 33% cheaper Imp is not that big eco bonus. Early Imperial push is best gamble of Byzantines but it is still mediocre. With 3, 4 PA 100/125 hp, 1.25 speed Cataphract, Byzantines will gain a unit that can perform pushing and raiding both.
so what is the counter to your hypothetical cataphract for civs with bad cavalry? because archers will take over 60 shots to kill it.
it wrecks infantry. so basically the only option left is heavy cavalry. how does a civ like Vikings deal with it?
what about meso civs?
the cataphract is fine as is, except maybe in cost. the civ doesnât need an unkillable unit. you pretend to be a fan of balance but your actions say otherwise time and time again.
3 Likes
We now know that people think âbadly designedâ means âbrokenâ or âterribleâ
Almost nobody voted for Vietnamese. Salute to @WhiteMagick4 and @Atafas for picking what is clearly the most confused civilization to ever be seen.
3 Likes
My action is make Catapract lovable unit. I also proposed to restrict -16 attack bonus reduction for only spear-line. Therefore, camels, Mameluke, Genoese Crossbowman, Kamayuk counter Cataphract in my new design.
WHICH DOESNâT APPLY FOR MOST CIVS.
Itâs literally one of the fan favorite UU as is. IT doesnât need to be more loveable. What you have made is a unit that has 1 friggen counter for most civs. Heavy Cavalry.
some civs donât even have a Counter.
also FYI - there is no way to restrict what the source of bonus damage is. bonus damage is done to armor classes on the receiving unit, not based on armor classes from the attacking unit.
the only way to get what you want would be to make new armor classes specifically for the Cataphract. which is a whole lot of work for what actual gain? a unit that a handful of civs would never have a counter for?
4 Likes
I know they made Condottiero armor class to restrict (10) infantry armor class only against Gunpowder units. There is also Mameluke armor class, it can apply Cataphract as well.
I proposed to decrease trample damage from 5 to 4 and effect Byzantines Paladin as well. 125 HP Cataphract would trade equally with Vikings Cavalier according to my estimation.
1 PA Cataphract is bad at both pushing and raiding. Cataphract should be more than infantry and anti-cavalry counter unit with its immensely high cost. Cataphract deserve more than its current state.
Byzantines has no raiding unit and pushing ability become trash in Late Game due to lacking Siege Engineering and high PA Heavy Cavalry. I think Byzantines need offensive unit together with.
1 Like
We really, really donât need to be adding more armor classes. Game is complicated enough right now. Anything that can be done without an armor class addition should be done that way, imo.
1 Like
so lets add more armor classes and make stuff more convuluted and harder for new players to understand so you can have a change that is completely unnecesary and makes it all but impossible for Meso civs (and others) to counter cataphracts?
I am SO SO GLAD you are in no way associated with this games design because you clearly donât understand the game or balance.
4 Likes
Mameluke armor class was unnecessary really. Devs could reach similar bonus attacks with adding like cavalry (10) and camel armor (4) class both. I donât also understand that why it is convulated for newer players. New players only need to know that Cataphract only decrease bonus attack from spear-line or more simple that Cataphract is cavalry that canât countered by halberdier, that is all a player need to know about Cataphract, that is all. In fact, current Cataphract situation is harder to understand for newer players, because Cata not only decrease spear-line bonus attack but also different anti cav bonuses like Genoese Crossbowman, Vikings +5 attack against Cav, Cannon Galleon and most interestingly Flaming Camel which is stupid simply. I donât understand why new armor class is big burden computationally, I am coder but I donât know and I also donât care, a game must provide basic game mechanics like this.
I am starting with meso civs:
In current game state, only Mayans can counter Cataphract with cheap Arbalest and Plumed archer. Aztecs (neither generic arbalest nor pikeman work) and Incas (Kamayuk doesnât work. It has only generic Arbalest, Byzantines has best Skirmisher in the game, in conclusion Incas also die to Cataphract) die hard against Cataphract. If Cata gain 3,4 PA like I suggest, Mayans also die to Cataphract, however Incas will counter Cataphract with Kamayuk and Aztecs Champion also fight back against 125 HP Cataphracts. In Castle Age, all Meso civs can counter Cataphract with Monks, Cataphract will be too hard-to-stop only in Imperial Age.
Vikings Cavalier and Light Cavalry will trade cost-efficiently against 125 hp Cataphract. Even below average Cavalries can trade cost-efficiently against 125 HP Cataphracts. I donât see any civ struggle against 125 HP Cata, maybe Vietnamese Cavalier would have problem to beat Cata due to lacking Blast Furnace.
There is a lot of civ that countered by one specific unit. For instance, all non-bracer civ are countered by simple cavalry archers like Teutons, Slavs, Bulgarians, Franks.
A lot of people think that Cata is fine unit. Cata isnât fine unit, it is pretty bad designed unit. Cata must be power unit, in current state, Cata hasnât offensive ability, it is counter unit (counter units cost little gold, Cata cost too much for a counter unit), it counter infantry and anti-cav units, Cata need more than that, with 4 PA Cata could kill archers. For instance, Paladin is all purpose power unit, why not can Cata become all purpose power unit like Paladin. Paladin beat everything other than spear-line and camels. Cata kill spear-line and infantry harshier in contrast to Paladin but in other fields, Cata has nothing, Cata canât raid, Cata die hard to archers. I am simply proposing that Cata shouldnât die against archers but Cata can die more harder against cavalry. Cata is unique unit, of course it must be all purpose power unit like other unique Cavs like Coustiller, Keshik, Boyar, Leitis and Konnik.
There are plenty of unique units serving as more like counter units. Slinger, Genoese crossbowman, Huskarl, samurai, jaguar warrior etc. Leitis also weak vs archer while strong vs melee units, not an all-purpose power unit.
4 Likes
How does generic arbalests not counter cataphracts? Considering that arbs are one of the first things literally anyone will mention when people ask how to beat Cataphracts. Even the tech tree says to use archers.
125 hp cataphracts that are dealing 12+2+12+4 damage lose to Aztec champs?
Kamayuks Iâll give you.
The only one there that struggles against cav archers is teutons and that is because thry lack husbandry.
Cata has more survival then anything you listed against normal cavalry counters and they deal trample damage. Literally the only weakness they have as is are archers and heavy cavalry. Itâs already very strong. Also how is leitis all purpose? It sucks vs archers.
Uh no. Current cataphtact is easy to understand. It takes less bonus damage period. Thatâs very easy to understand.
1 Like
All of these units has versality more than Cataphract. Genoese kill also infantries like arbalest, Huskarl destroy buildings, siege units and counter Eagle Warrior, Huskarl also beat Cavalier cost effificently. Samurai can kill buildings, kill Cavaliers and infantries thanks to 33% attack speed. Samurai is also all purpose unit in conclusion. Leitis kill Heavy Cavalry and mediocre in raiding thanks to kill Villagers in 2 hits with 2 relics. Jaguar Warrior is simliar to Samurai, Jaguar Warrior kill Paladin cost efficiently, destroy buildings, Jaguar Warrior is also all purpose unit like Samurai. Slinger can kill low PA units for instance, units lacking last armor like Poles, Aztecs, Siclians Arbalests, Mongols Steppe Lancer. Cata is only unit that it is counter unit like trash units but it has huge gold cost.
Cata+ Paladin wrecks halbs and archers.
but not as well as arbs do because lower range.
yeah? use your byzantine siege to support your cataphracts and watch buildings be a non entity.
but not population efficiently, which is why you donât see this strategy used.
and again, how often do you actually see this strategy used? be serious now man.
yep Leitis are good in melee fights. congrats. but they are bad against archers and the spear line. congrats. i donât see you making them more well rounded.
Quoting this so it can never go away. you have officially confirmed your troll status to the extreme.
Cataphracts are good against all counter units, are good against infantry in general, and still hold up reasonably well against cavalry units. they should absolutely see a small gold cost reduction imho but what you are asking for is absurd.
Incas has no eco bonus and generic Arbalest isnât as good as Cavalry Archer against Cataphract. Byzantines has best Skirmisher to save Cata from Incas generic Arbalest. Generally speaking, Incas hasnât enough option against late game Cataphract. With my change, Kamayuk will counter Cataphract.
Cataphract has advantage but Aztecs Champion kill 125 HP Cataphract in 8 hits while it die in 3 hits. 8/3 = 2.67. It is known that generic Champion beat generic Paladin cost efficiently. Generic Champion kill Paladin in 15 hits while it die in only 5 hits. 15/5 = 3. Cata has 4 (I proposed to decrease from 5 to 4 and give trample damage to Paladin) trample damage and 11% attack speed as well. Aztecs Champion would beat Cata cost efficiently like Champion beat Paladin.
Are Slvas, Bulgarians and Franks good against late Cav Archers? I didnât know that. Best one is Franks has 192 hp Paladin, even that is not enough in late game.
Leitis kill Arbalest in 2 hits which Cata canât. Leitis is better against archers. Leitis kill heavy cavalry and can make raiding as well. Leitis has more ability than Cata. Cata has only 2 ability: kill infantry and anti-cav units, Leitis does more.
It isnât very easy to understand though. Cata doesnât block Samuraiâs bonus attack because it is anti unique attack. However, Cata has only armor in Cavalry armor class. Flaming camel giving less damage to Cata also incomprehensible from normal player.
Boyar, Leitis, Keshik, Coustiller, Cav Archers, Steppe Lancer, Kamayuk, Samurai, Berserk, Elephants wreck Paladin+Cata.
It still does but Cata canât destroy buildings and canât make raidings which Samurai, Jaguar Warrior, Genoese can.
Using siege to destroy to buildings is still expensive and if Cata has more attack, it can be very useful to destroy enemy buildings like TC. With 4 PA, Cata doesnât die to TC and kill villagers without dieing to TC.
Huskarl is great against Cavalier and bad Melee attack infantries like Byzantines, Malians, Koreans Champion, it is very valid strategy.
I saw that Samurai kill buildings, cavalries, infantries, villagers, it is also very valid strategy. Cata canât do this, it only does kill infantry and anti cavs.
Jaguar Warrior kill heavy cavalries, buildings and villagers, you can try 22 Paladin vs 40 Jaguar. Jaguar will beat Paladin. Paladinâs upgrades are also more expensive.
Itâs still plenty of good enough to take them down.
assuming you actually get a fight where you have enough population in champions do get those hits in. fact is that you would need 3 times the champions they have in cataphracts. which means even in late imp if he has 20 cataphracts your talking all but 20 of your population being eaten up by champions. meanwhile he has another 60 population to make whatever the heck they want.
based on what? Franks are literally one of the top tier civs in the game.
assuming the leitis actually gets to the archers.
leitis has the advantage against archers if it gets to them. its real advantage is against heavy cavalry.
against infantry and counter units the cataphract comes out ahead.
the leitis is not an all purpose unit.
really? got a source for this claim?
raiding is more about killing economy then killing buildings. in that regards the cataphract is better then anything except the GC in your list.
yeah? go show me this great strategy used at hte pro level then.
source your claim.
again - source from the pro level of samurai being used widely against cavalry.
as is elite jaguar + garland wars. 1450 food and 1250 gold. 40 jaguars is 2400 food and 1200 gold. total is 3850 food and 2450 gold.
Cavalier + paladin is 1600 food and 1050 gold. 22 paladins are 1320 food and 1650 gold. total is 2920 and 2700.
so the cavalry costs 250 more gold but also almost a THOUSAND less Food. not to mention the fact that itâs eating up less population space.
so youâve given the advantages to the jaguars on two fronts in this fight. try again. total resources and more population invested. that really isnât a fair fight if your goal is to show that the jags can win. of course they are going to win when you give them advantages like that.
your also assuming a generic paladin.
I understand that Mayans can counter Cataphract but Incas really struggle against Cataphract. Incas die to Cataphract+Skirmisher combo consideing Incas also hasnât option against Skirmisher. Eagle Warrior+Kamayuk are countered harshly by Cataphract.
It is late game scenario, Aztecs must kill Byzantines before late game. Even now, Aztecs die hard against Byzantines late game Cataphract. 3,4 PA doesnât change hopeleness of Aztecs against Cata in late game.
Franks is top tier civ due to early game power, in late game, Franks die to Cavalry Archer just like Slavs, Teutons, Celts, Bulgarians.
Leitis is all purpose unit because it can make raiding, kill heavy cav, kill archers and cav archer when it managed to get close in addition Leitis is cheaper than Cataphract. Leitis has versality comparing to Cataphract. Cataphract is only expensive unique unit who is restricted to 2 ability. Other gold unique units are all purpose units.
AOE2 wiki says flaming camel has +50 attack against cav. Cataphract should decrease to +35, I didnât try in game but according to game rules, flaming camel should give 20+50-16 = +54 damage to Cataphract.
It is not true, all unique infantry units is better than Cataphract in raiding. Cata is 2 time approximately expensive than unique infantry units. You should compare 30 Samurai raiding vs 17 Cata raiding not same number. Cata kill villager in 2 hits while unique infantry units kill in 3 hits even Shotel and TK kill in 2 hits. Even weakest infantry raiding unit which is TK is better than Cataphract I think. Halberdier is also better raiding unit than Cataphract because it is trash unit. Cataphract cost too much for raiding with only 1 PA.
I will look for sample.
Disagree because Garland war effect also other infantries and Paladin upgrade is 270 seconds which is a lot of time. Reaching Jaguar is a lot faster. Jaguar is fine against Paladin. You must show that Pala destroy Jaguar because I said that Jaguar is all purpose unit, I donât say that good against everything.
All purpose unit means that it can be used in variety of tasks and Jaguar can be used against heavy cavalries, buildings, sieges, villagers while Cata canât be used in variety of tasks. Cataâs usage is 2 area: against infantry and anti-cav units. You canât use Cata in raiding, killing cav archer, heavy cavalry (you need 40 of them to trade fine against Paladin which is impossible 90% of times. Enemy would choose fight in low numbers like 10-20 vs 10-20).