It is more interesting if we dissect the data into each match up, you can see that china real problem is not france or english, but Dehli and HRE power spike at castle(/imp for HRE) age. In case of Dehli, every civ shares the same concern, tough to deal with fully upgrade dehli during mid-late castle, so it is not china fault.
HRE has a better economy, and is able to fast imperial at 10ish mins. From the graph, it pretty much dominates china during 15-35 mins of the game, where it keeps china at bay, more than 60% of china VS HRE ends in this timespan, with the winrate floating around 40% ish. (tho it is not as bad as Eng VS HRE stat)
I think the main contribution is that the MaA timing push which is imo tough for china (& Eng) to deal with (their knight and crossbow has nothing special). Therefore, I think, by “moving spirit way to a castle age landmark” (swap with the useless clockwork tw), it will give the possibility of buffing china crossbowman to have a better fight against timing push MaA, or giving a better chance for china to prevent the HRE fast naked imperial. (We can also make spirit way buff scales according to the dynasty achieved as well)
I think the stat for this match up looks pretty bad, even from the start of the game, despite English being anagressive early civ is mainly because it is hard to apply pressure to HRE with the instant repair, so HRE, with insane eco, can always go castle easily. I would suggest that the instant repair scales according to ages.
Furthermore, I think by making the council hall able to train crossbow & handcanonner should increase some chances for Eng to fight in this match up. (Afterall, Eng has network of citadel during castle age)
I see you title each graph? but I don’t see where it suggest the graph is a representation of CHINA vs HRE?
Secondly of course HRE beats China b/c China has no feudal aggression minus TR/BBQ and HRE timings are all sooner than China’s. Similarly with Delhi; there is a tournament game on Altai between Puppypaw and Kasva, China vs Delhi; and Puppy starting macro was acceptional how he denied all 3 sacred sites for majority of the game, YET had it not been for a few mistakes on kasva would have lost that game decisively! Again the Delhi timing is also faster than China’s.
So lets run thru the matchups.
Eng vs China
English can hit feudal with powerful aggression, or FC with 2 TC vs China clocktower PG/knights play/NOBs
FRE vs China
French dominates feudal, so just not a good matchup on open maps period.
HRE vs China
we just discuss that
Delhi vs China
same as above
Abbasid vs China
Abbasid boom is stronger than China’s and cheaper and if China doesnt BBQ/TR, China’s timings will be behind all of Abbasid timings. However the overall matchup suggest 50-50.
Mongol vs China
Mongols are better at the TR game, much much better at Fast Castle, and China doesnt have a real strong presents in feudal to make a difference.
Rus vs China
Rus is actually extremely defensive and they have knights, they have a decent boom but vs China I believe they are optimal playing feudal a bit to keep china in check; probably China’s best 50-50 matchup on paper.
Since the majority of these games end by the 30min mark overall China early game is in a HORRID place!
What you say would be ideal, what’s more, I think the Abbasids are the only ones who have this problem. I think giving him a military alternative in Feudal can improve the percentage.
That’s why I suggest spirit way moving up an age to power boost chinese castle military a bit
China can deal with Eng feudal agression pretty well as its eco is always ahead then English, giving the ability to spam Horsemen, ZGN more than Eng army Evenhough, longbow can kites ZGN easily, but ZGN beats longbow in number, which chinese always has thanks to to boosted eco and supervision military building. (Anyway, nowadays players with any civ can deal with early aggression pretty well, Eng capability drops off quite a lot).
Most civ apart from mongol shares the same concerns, but china can deal with feudal france better than some civs.
This matchup favors china most imo xD, current china is stronger than abba, as most abba always go more than 1 TC, u can always rush them quick (dont need to all-in rush, but at least need to take 2nd or 3rd tc down quick) and maintain tempo, abba eco buff is scaling better, but chinese eco buff favors more during feudal, so it is best to take advantage of that.
This matchup is tough for china, but other civ also share the same concern, but at least china can deal with mongol tw rush better than every other civs (except Eng vill)
Actually this matchup is imo quite tough for china, rus can inflict some dmg during feudal, or rush castle and get better units, but on the other hand, china can also deny the boar easier than other civs.
The problem of that low stat of abba in 5-15 mins mainly contributes from some abba players just brainlessly go 2nd TC without scouting the incoming danger. So they dropped the game quite early, if you see the number of the game ended before 15 mins, its not much comparing to other timing.
no, just no. Even your graphs (ty for sharing that info, cool tool) says NO. LB with network of castles can’t be stopped esp when they hit critical mass; longbow out range zhuge nu and can kite all day so doesnt matter if zhuge have higher dps if they never get to shoot. MAA/spears will eat ANY horseman nonsense China wants to do; however if China can strangle reinforcements then China might have to time to go castle, where that’s their only chance of winning vs English.
Regardless we can all agree, even when you compare all the civs to each other China is the only civ that loses to all other 7 civs on average at high level play. China has the one of the worst feudal options with a late late power spike.
The only bonus China got was IA can now build IO’s? Again only time will tell how strong this buff is.
I think the key is china can hit critical mass before Eng does, due to the economy lead, feudal taxes is no joke, its like you get 150-400 free gold every mins, while microing the same IO to 20% boost the resources, and mass ZGN does beat mass longbow imo. English does take time to reach critical mass, so I think it is imo in china favor. After all, you can always choose where/when to fight, so as English.
Nah, that is not even remotely close to what I said, I think china benefit from IO most is during feudal/early castle (since, after that you will have too much vills to keep it all tgt under 1 prod. building and walking gathering time would compensate some 20% buff, and taxes is harder to collect once u expand), so if you control it well, it is not a bad feudal civ.
Even if Eng aren’t too strong right now they are way better than Chinese, the Eng global winrate without HRE is easily over 50%. In the particular matchup against China, Eng has over 50% win rates in all ranks.
In theory China has many tool and options, but in practice the civ is not performing and that demonstrates that the mechanics/bonuses are not as good as they seem.
I understand, but from my experience, it is super easy to deal with the early aggression from france and Eng.
Here is my stat, I never do the BBQ nor TW rush, just mass and maintain tempo, punish enemy if they go more greedy than me, the number of the game is not much in rank match (Sry I won’t share the game tag, as I want to keep my identity anonymous).
I believe it is a good solution for the feudal, but I don’t believe it’s enough to transition to the castle age.
I think I saw Aussie Drongo talk about some possibilities of making China more viable in the period between the end of the feudal age and the castle age.
To improve the value of Landmarks, in my opinion, would be a good way to make this period in China fairer, since they are buildings, and if they are placed in vulnerable places they can also be destroyed.
Note: Not having to make the officers in the town center would already be a good buff for the Chinese economy in the Feudal Age without wasting precious villager production time, making their feudal more advanced economically
note: Here would be the idea to make this landmark more interesting, and more valuable, like the Council Hall of the English that produces the Longbows with some benefit.
The idea is to make Castle do Chines a little better, having a building that gives you more infrastructure and the creation of a mass of Palace Guards, to defend and counterattack, and the player will still have to find the necessary resources to produce the palace guards. (does not need to be as strong as Burgrave Palace HRE)
Chinese should have gunpowder units in the Song Dynasty, and Chinese were the first to use gunpowder. This is an honor for the inventor of gunpowder, and it is also in line with the positioning of the Chinese in the game. It can also solve the problems of Chinese in the feudal era.
If it can be adjusted to a suitable intensity, I would be happy to see such a change, so as to conform to the setting of Gunpowder Civilization. In addition to the tower gun, the current Chinese civilization does not feel the characteristics of the gunpowder civilization at all. There are only various unusable landmarks and imperial officials who make people busy, which is not exciting at all.
Look at England as a longbow civilization, they had longbowmen in the feudal era; France and Rus were cavalry civilizations, they had knights in the feudal era; the Derry Sultanate and the Abbasids, although they did not have early special military units, but At least one soldier can build wooden walls, another can build siege units for free, and their landmarks are very characteristic and useful.
I think that was the dev initial plan, if you go to the map editor, there was a feudal/ castle ver. of grenadier, but they changed it ig, after seeing how broken could that be. xD
Dehli has unique fishing boat, which is very situationally useful, and abba has camel archer available early.
Abba dont build siege units for free, just free siege engineering research, plus ability to build mango& springald on field.
I think Dehli landmark is subjectively meh, especially imperial landmarks, Hisar academy is prolly the worst landmark in game.
