Effect: Spearman-line +5 vs cavalry, +3 vs war elephant and +5 vs camel.
Cost: 300f 200g
Research Time: 50 seconds
Available to all civilizations. (for now)
Halberdier
Bonus damage vs Cavalry reduced from 32 to 27.
Bonus damage vs Elephants reduced from 28 to 25.
Bonus damage vs Camels reduced from 26 to 21.
Upgrade cost changed from 300f 600g to 300f 400g
(Relatively new technologies, such as Supplies, Arson and Arrowslits have been created to address the balance of the game over the years, and I think there is still potential room for experimentation and additions. Upgrades are supposed to be meaningful, but the leap from Pikeman to Halberdier is quite massive. I propose a reallocation of some of the power from Halberdier to the whole Spearman-line in the form of a new upgrade. This way we could still keep the existing Halberdier where it is wanted, but also allow for a potential re-balance of its predecessors. This could help even the notorious Turks’ Spearmen without giving them Pikeman. There is overlap with Vikings’ unique technology Chieftains, but I don’t see it as an issue - rather as an opportunity for something new.)
While I would love to see more generic techs, I think it is hard to find any niche for them. This proposal feels like a forced tech that is downgrading the units and also probably heavily affects balance
I think that suggestion is good for Aztecs, Italians.
Missing halb make their option against cavarly limited.
Splitting halb powerspike to two upgrade might be meaningful for smooth the power level of halb and pike. Pike aren’t even good against some really good hussar is an issue for some matchup.
if we want to add new tech, i would prioritize targetting them to militia-line rather than spears, since they still are a gold unit that can’t win you the game or do serious numbers unlike knights and xbows
You realise, that this proposed tech is doing exactly that?
Anyway I like the proposal. With it the devs would be able to have an option of giving a civ a middleground between having or not having Halbs when balancing a civ.
No, it nerf Halberdier and buff spear and pike only in Imperial Age. I want to buff Spearman and Pikeman in Feudal&Castle Age where Spearman and Pikeman are weak. If proposal wanted to buff Spearman and Pikeman, it should give these bonuses without Imperial Age tech like spearman +20 attack against cavalry and Pikeman +27 attack against Cavalry.
There’s no need for new techs for these kind of small issues. Even supplies was unnecessary tech. Devs could solve Longsword’s problem by simply buffing Longsword like giving 65 hp and 10 attack to Longsword and removing THS upgrade. Of course, time has passed to say that. This should have been done on time.
I guess FU halbs with Camel civ except Chinese are Indians, Byzantines, Persians. Persians should have this tech because nerfing more them doesn’t make sense. Byzantines also need that tech for trash civ (They are European Civ for sure)
Indians can lose that tech they are already so strong civ with strong eco in open map.
Then how about giving that tech (for most of the civ) in Castle age? To pay for that tech then get +22 attack against Cavalry in castle age.
I don’t think so. Giving new tech is more interesting than direct buff. Because tech means players should pay for it. This add strategical depth in the game for deciding to research that tech or not.
All don’t get halb, still are all considered a or even s-tier for a lot of different maps. Especially open maps that feature a lot of cav play.
I don’t know where this “halbs op” narrative comes from. Also pikes still do the job against cavalier.
It’s obvious this proposal is just intended to actually delay the halb upgrade which is not necessary by any means.
Imo the most needed buff for the spear line is a slight speed increase. They can be so easily outmanouvered by cav. We need to make it more difficult to do this. PLayers have become too good in unit control so the old intended balance isn’t there anymore.
Techs which gives small effect like Arson is unnecessary. It complicate game for no reason. Supplies gives big buff but civs without supplies has trash militia-line now. There is no similar tech to Supplies in generic military buildings as well, thus I think introduction of Supplies was unnecessary.
Spearman can’t kill a villager in 1v1, Pikeman can kill a villager in 2 hours struggle but Pikeman is still trash in raiding while Halberdier can make raiding and kill villagers. Creating Halberdier nonstop is easier in Imperial Age than Castle&Feudal Age as well. If you think Spearman and Pikeman are balanced, you must admit Halberdier is OP. If you think Halberdier is balanced like me, you must admit Spearman and Pikeman are weak.
Other trash units doesn’t gain power spike as much as Halberdier. Light Cavalry gain only +15 HP (+20%) and Skirmisher gain +1 range. However, Halberdier gain insane power spike (+2 attack (+50%), +11 (+42%) attack against Cavalry). Halberdier becoming barely balanced unit with this huge power spike shows that Spear and Pike are weak.
Yeah this is why I pointed out in the beginning that the 2 extra damage has actually the biggest impact.
No, I only think that the bonus damage of skirms against spears is too low in imp. I don’t think halb is OP, but the trash counter isn’t as good in it’s job.
Halbs still have a lot of counters in imp, including ca, champs, HC, Siege… Really, I don’t think it’s OP, not even close.
And as I said, I think the spear line in general is a bit too weak. Maybe not the halb, but the other ones. But for these lategame situations a bit more movement speed isn’t that important also.
Idk why you react like this tbh because I basically say the same thing as you, just have a different way to approach it.
It’s not because I want to be rude, but I can express myself that much with the knowledge of English I have. You said spearmen needed speed rather than power increase. It makes more sense to me that spearmen should be stronger against cavalry than they having more speed. It is also possible to give 4/5 attack to Spearman/Pikeman. It looks stupid that Spearman can’t kill a villager in 1v1 fight.
but Spearman become useless if you can’t engage scouts. +1 attack will help them to be useful in other tasks. “Counter only one type of unit and countered by everything else (even by villager) is weird unit concept” Spearman isn’t cheap and heavily countered by archers as well. It should at least beat a villager in 1v1 fight. On the other hand, Pikeman doesn’t have enough dominance over Knight-line. Pikeman definitely need more bonus attack against cavalries like 5 base attack +26 attack. Pikeman must kill Knight in 4 hits just like Halberdier kill Cavalier in 4 hits. Cavalier is equivalent of Knight, Paladin is extra bonus upgrade to create superior unit over other generic units.
Knights historically could beat several pikes at once though. That’s realistic. Pikemen don’t have to kill knights in 4 hits, because pikes are cheap, easy to mass, and can be upgraded from spears in Feudal. Whereas knights are expensive, have to be massed in castle, and can be countered by more than just spears.
It is wrong, Pikeman beat Knight-line in equal numbers in history. In real history, there is no military unit that is ultra elite and can take down high number of enemy. Professional cavalry has no advantage over professional infantry. 1 cavalry equals 1 infantry. The horse does not provide any serious advantage other than speed. Fighting on foot is better than mounted in majority of situations.
Halberdier also kill Cavalier in 4 hits. Do you think Halberdier is too strong? Pikeman need upgrade and Knight doesn’t. It is plus for Knight-line as well. Pikeman simply isn’t enough strong against Knight. Against Paladin, Halberdier is fine.
A pike square tech would be no e thought since it was the dominating formation in late medieval times in Europe out of with the tercio evolved (tercio = pike + musket formation) with then went on to dominate all over Europe as well for a time.
I don’t assume you guys played age of Kings much, but back then pikes felt horrible at countering franksh nights. Like no counter bad.
That’s why halbs were introduced.
Now pikes still feel horrible.
This hole tech proposal is Not about nerfing halbs. It is only about buffing pikes (and Turkish spearmen) that don’t get halbs in the first place.
Additionally I would allow us to fine tune and difceriate civs further with more or less weakness to cav in imp