Agressive play might be fun for pros, but it's turning away newcomers

[filtercoffee488]

@PilgrimHYR

Imagine not playing Arena and complaining Arabia is too open.

Imagine considering my explanations for why that is, and checking which maps I found to actually work. Wow.

@PilgrimHYR

You can always small wall your resources in advance so you don’t need quickwall.

Alright, you need to start teaching people to play first, before saying stuff like this.

@LKAOE4

When I started AOE2, I was loosing 99% of my matchs but I still continue and liked it.

Good for you, my friend. Unfortunately, this means nothing as it is an anecdotal experience.

@TheRaff0

I think the issue is not scouts, but investment of time to the game in which you failed to achive anything.

I did not think of that. That’s an excellent point. It’s not just that you lost, it’s that you developed your base for like 10 minutes, and now it means nothing. You get the actual fun after building the base and starting to fight. But you get none of that here. That was insightful, thanks!

@NastyHigh

Arabia is fine for noobs. Biggest mistake noobs make is trying to wall their entire base with enormous walls.

I don’t think so. You are right in that noobs waste a lot of time trying to full wall. But arabia require way more than that. Arabia is also quite snowbally. You cannot afford even smaller mistakes on the map.

@NastyHigh

Of course, they should start with build order tutorial scenarios with no enemy AI.

What you are saying is correct, but nobody actually wants to do this. I don’t think anybody but like 1% starts out this way.

@NastyHigh

But if 20 games is too much of an investment and they can’t handle losing a lot, maybe this game is just not for them.

No, they can just start in other ways. By playing campaigns, for example. You are writing off people far too quickly.

@TommoChocolate

Someone might have asked this already, but have you had them play against each other? That probably won’t help them improve quickly, but it might help them have fun.

Good point. These people are from totally different social circles, but I’ll try it. With me as well, we have 3 players.

@AriesXBox90

I think towers and gates are to weak. Towers should be cheaper and Gates more tanky.

And it is not obvious how weak gates are, compared to walls. I learned this only because I watched pro games.

@WoodsierCorn696

Maybe this is the biggest hurdle. You dont really need all of these things if you just get started. Not everyone should start as a pro. You will always has new players that start the the bottom. That is just how every game work.

I should’ve clarified this in the post. I didn’t ask them to memorize all hotkeys. I only asked to memorize 3. One, select all tc. Two, create new villagers (just q), and 3, select all idle villagers. Just these 3.

@Sandy_Cohen

Have them play vs ai until they learn the game. Moderate, hard etc. Once they win Extreme Ai they are ““ready”” for multiplayer.

This hasn’t worked. They don’t like doing this. Doing campaigns on the hand is much better.

[Sandy_Cohen]

Campaigns is cool and all but it’s a completely different experience. Do you want them to play Ranked with you or just lobbies? What’s the endgame?

I have tried to get my friends to play AoE too, it didn’t work xD One of them actually stopped playing because he got lamed, boar and sheep. it pissed him off so much he uninstalled the game and never played again it’s a shame though, because the game needs more players. AoE has a lot of people watching, but not a lot of people playing.

[HestiaAoE]

@filtercoffee488

considering my explanations for why that is, and checking which maps I found to actually work

@filtercoffee488

it isn’t closed off and easy to castle drop like arena is

What do you mean Yukatan isn’t closed off? It’s as easy to castle drop on Yukatan and it could be harder to defend because of hills and lack of stone wall.

@filtercoffee488

you need to start teaching people to play first, before saying stuff like this

So small wall can not be part of teaching? Now that you mentioned quick wall.

Again idk what your goal is. It seems you don’t want your friends to be below 800 elo so you want to change the game balance. Nice try

@filtercoffee488

nobody actually wants to do this. I don’t think anybody but like 1% starts out this way

Your points are contradictory, this is surely just casual players, if you are entering ranked, AND not wanting to do build orders, AND complain about being rushed, what can I say?

[NastyHigh]

@LKAOE4

If you you play the game and you get diretly fed up after defeats, it means you don’t like the game and there no necessity to force you to play the game.

This is my thoughts exactly. We should be open to suggestions to get more players involved in the game but that should not be to the detriment of the gameplay for everyone else. Auto scout and shift queuing already make the game much easier for noobs, there is also auto reseed farms and auto fish traps too. Playing Huns when you first start is also a good idea because houses are one less thing to worry about. Obviously they should eventually practise other civs but absolute beginners often get housed so it’s nice to have Huns as an option. Aoe2 is known for being a hard game, that’s one of the keys to its appeal, it is challenging. Simple-minded gamers can just play Call of Duty. Aoe2 is a thinking man’s RTS game. We don’t have to pander to the energy drink addicted Tik Tok generation with the attention span of a goldfish. It takes a long time to get good and there are enough guides out there to improve, but you need the desire in the first place. You can’t ban early aggression, it’s such an integral part of the game.

[NastyHigh]

@filtercoffee488

This hasn’t worked. They don’t like doing this. Doing campaigns on the hand is much better.

Campaigns are better than nothing but they are not really that useful if they want to compete on the ladder. If they don’t like Random Map vs. AI, they should be playing private lobby games against each other. Maybe also team games with Discord chat to make it more fun.

[filtercoffee488]

@NastyHigh

Campaigns are better than nothing but they are not really that useful if they want to compete on the ladder.

You know too much about the game, which is why you don’t see the benefit. I didn’t either, till I watched others play.

Campaigns still teach you things like units and counter units. That is super important. It teaches you how to take down buildings, and how to build a basic eco. It also teaches you to get upgrades and which upgrades are useful.

Most importantly, it gets you hooked onto the game. Playing 1v1 easy ai is boring, playing a campaign is not.

@Sandy_Cohen

Campaigns is cool and all but it’s a completely different experience. Do you want them to play Ranked with you or just lobbies? What’s the endgame?

As I’ve said above, campaigns can help people learn a LOT about the basics, and get them hooked. We can then slowly get them to play ranked.

@Sandy_Cohen

I have tried to get my friends to play AoE too, it didn’t work xD One of them actually stopped playing because he got lamed, boar and sheep. it pissed him off so much he uninstalled the game and never played again

Yeah, it’s scenarios like this I’m talking about. It sucks for everyone. We want our friends to enjoy the same thing we do, and we lose that. They could’ve had a great time if they stuck around. Aoe2 community mostly consists of older people, so we also lose on a new player. It sucks all around

@PilgrimHYR

What do you mean Yukatan isn’t closed off? It’s as easy to castle drop on Yukatan and it could be harder to defend because of hills and lack of stone wall.

Yutakan maps have usually 3, but anywhere from 2-4 openings. However, the openings are spread out. Your opponent can’t place a castle and cover like 70% of ground. It also feels more spacious, and it has more resources to start with. Yes, you need to wall, but it’s just easier is what I’ve observed.

@PilgrimHYR

So small wall can not be part of teaching? Now that you mentioned quick wall.

Small wall is a whole other thing you need to learn. It is a high-level skill in of itself. Not that good for new players who need to learn so many other things.

@PilgrimHYR

Your points are contradictory, this is surely just casual players, if you are entering ranked, AND not wanting to do build orders,

What exactly is the contradiction? Also, quote me where I said they don’t want to do build orders. Don’t put words in my mouth.

[anon69503411]

Ex-aoe2 player here. I actually quit aoe2 because I feel it is too slow and non aggressive. It is slow paced and takes many minutes to build up, lure deers and boars. Walling is meta if you rush you run into big walls and small walls. That’s just arabia, in arena you know the build up time is longer.

Even if you reach feudal age, in the first few minutes you mostly fight with a small army, a few scouts, skirms, archers, MAA, same from opponent. You both micro a few units back and forth, every single game. I found it boring after I played thousands of hours of aoe2.

I turned to some more fast paced RTS games, like aoe3. They have faster age up, resources collection, shipments to accelerate game pace, also batch training, and no walling and farming early. It is more fun honestly.

My point is for experienced players, making the game more turtle like, slow paced, defensive is going to make the game boring, while more new players might join, experienced players might find it boring and leave the game.

[NauseantWings09]

thank you, it’s hard to encourage new players to play something that takes a skilled player a minimum of 17 mins without taking eco damage to get to their civ’s unique and interesting units

[HestiaAoE]

@filtercoffee488

quote me where I said they don’t want to do build orders. Don’t put words in my mouth.

? what are you talking about

@filtercoffee488

@NastyHigh

Of course, they should start with build order tutorial scenarios with no enemy AI.

What you are saying is correct, but nobody actually wants to do this. I don’t think anybody but like 1% starts out this way.

[filtercoffee488]

@PilgrimHYR

what are you talking about

I said they don’t want to play nothing games which are pure practice. That doesn’t mean they don’t want to learn build orders.

I found it fairly easy to teach them simplified build orders. Thing like first 6 on food, next 3 on wood, and the rest on food till you hit like 18 pop.

Do you really not see the difference between “learning a build order for a noob” vs training repeatedly against no enemy just to get this one thing right?

Heck, I can’t do the latter even now, while I have learned many build orders.

[HestiaAoE]

@filtercoffee488

Do you really not see the difference between “learning a build order for a noob” vs training repeatedly against no enemy just to get this one thing right?

I’m explicitly saying the latter should benefit you more. Just like Survivalist said: https://youtu.be/Lt4N-5-OeAk?t=302

Like any sports or art that requires skill, it’s tedious individual practice that makes you good. If you don’t want to do that it’s fine. But don’t change game balance because of this.

[Kaput]

No. stop trying to change the game for people who dont even like it

[filtercoffee488]

@PilgrimHYR

I’m explicitly saying the latter should benefit you more. Just like Survivalist said: The Most Efficient Way to Improve at Age of Empires 2 - YouTube

Yes, but most people don’t want to be pros, or even necessarily high-Elo when starting out.

You are making the same mistake I have been pointing out repeatedly in this thread. “Benefit you more”. That already assumes a deep investment in the game which new players don’t have.

@PilgrimHYR

But don’t change game balance because of this.

I didn’t even ask to. Changing the game balance was just one option. Read the edit. Also, even if the game balance is modified a tiny bit, it won’t destroy your enjoyment. In fact, it’ll benefit it as more people will come in.

@Kaput

No. stop trying to change the game for people who dont even like it

Okay, so maybe you can’t do better than your knee jerk reaction. Or even read all that well. My bad.

[HestiaAoE]

@filtercoffee488

That already assumes a deep investment in the game which new players don’t have.

Sounds to me the reason you raise this topic is the lack of reward in the first few games of ranked for new players, which I agree, because 1000 is by no means noob level. Maybe starting elo should be 500, and elo increases for winning is much higher, but drops for losses be lower.

[thieftdp8498]

@Kaput

No. stop trying to change the game for people who dont even like it

exactly. He is someone who doesn’t read properly and jump to assumption, then proceeds escalate the argument into personal attacks. there was a HC thread ended up in similar fashion and I’d say just ignore him altogether.

besides, this thread is pointless. the game isn’t only about 1v1 as theres huge side to single player, including multiple against AI. if he is trying to get his friends into competitive area of the game then its him and his friends gotta do the work, get better and not get depressed after losing multiple games nonstop, not making all of us to change or change decades old game.

[JesusSaves]

I like neutral camps as a person whos played heros 3 and warcraft 3. A rich and vibrant world within the map is exciting. Maybe not too balanced for competitive play idk

But for the scouts thing, youre talking 1000 elos who are not newbs

Newcomers who are the topic of discussion are 700 elo and below

[filtercoffee488]

@PilgrimHYR

Sounds to me the reason you raise this topic is the lack of reward in the first few games of ranked for new players, which I agree, because 1000 is by no means noob level. Maybe starting elo should be 500, and elo increases for winning is much higher, but drops for losses be lower.

You can’t do that. I have a comment somewhere saying why. It’s a maths problem. If you lower the Elo, the same problem will prop uo at that Elo. Your concept is correct, but the solution is different. This is basically a problem in statistics, and you won’t exactly understand why unless you know intermediate level statistics.

@anon69503411

I turned to some more fast paced RTS games, like aoe3. They have faster age up, resources collection, shipments to accelerate game pace, also batch training, and no walling and farming early. It is more fun honestly.

Fun is inherently subjective. I’ve played a lot of games where there are just two resources and you build up an army within like 3 minutes and start fighting. It never appealed to me because it never felt like I had a stake in it. I never built anything, it was just repeatedly fighting for stuff all the time. It’s fine that you enjoy other games more, but it’s stupid to say “have fun my way”.

@anon69503411

experienced players might find it boring and leave the game.

There’s literally no evidence of that outside of your own experience. Your claim isn’t just that experienced players are leaving, it’s specifically that people are leaving because of defensive play. That’s an extremely strong claim. You need to back up that claim with some sort of numbers if you want people to take it seriously.

[anon69503411]

So what is your number that back up the claim that aggressive play turn away new players? Do you have any stats showing how many potentially new player there would be if the game is more defensive?

[anon69503411]

And yeah 2 resources is not fun, aoe3 has many types of resources. And maybe the ones who feel aggressive play is bad is just you? Do you have any stats backing up that other people feel the same?

[filtercoffee488]

@anon69503411

Do you have any stats showing how many potentially new player there would be if the game is more defensive?

Take a step back, think about what you are really arguing here. Are you going to say that noobs have no issue with early aggression? Is that what you are going for? If you are, I have nothing to say to you. If you believe that, you’d be someone with so little knowledge that it isn’t worth my time arguing it with you. That, or a bad faith actor.

What you are trying to do this is get a gotcha. You want to win against me. That stat you are asking for is not just difficult to obtain, it is impossible. If I had that, do you know much Microsoft would pay me? Every company would love to have that kind of data on their hands, about their products. Okay, I’ll admit defeat. You can move on with your life now.

I explicitly said that I am trying to get my friends into AoE2 and I am speaking my experience. My claim is rather simple, it is obviously anecdotal, and everybody knows it. Most people who has at least a minor idea about getting people to play AoE2 would agree. In fact, nobody on this thread has said that early aggression isn’t turning people away, only that people who are turned away by that aren’t meant to play AoE2.

You made a much stronger claim than that. If you don’t have stats, fine. Bring some form of evidence.

@anon69503411

And yeah 2 resources is not fun, aoe3 has many types of resources.

I don’t know why you are zooming in on 2 resources. This is only tangentially related to the argument. I brought it up to point out starcraft. Argue about the main point if you want, which is the investment people have.