It popped into my head so, without any foresight on the subject:
Change “Economic Upgrades available one age earlier” to “Economic upgrades researched for free after reaching the following age.”
That means if you go fast castle, free Wheelbarrow, Double-Bit, and Horse Collar immediately upon reaching castle age if you haven’t already researched it. You’ll never get the Imp techs for free, and getting the castle age techs for free means skipping them until Imperial, so it’d be a nice fast castle eco bonus that retains some value if there’s an extended feudal war. Maybe even fast imp viable to get a lot of upfront value on a closed map in exchange for a later uptime.
This’d be an easier eco bonus to figure out and it’d be more comparable to other strong eco techs in the right situation.
I think it is too strong. It will add up to like 2500 - 3000 res over the Game.
Of course you need to get to the next age before, but fc or fimp feels even more appealing to do with them.
I think just reducing the costs and research time of the upgrades to make them viable one age earlier could solve the problem, without any risk of making burgundians OP.
Cheshire, on an open map, they’d still have to play it out as normal (no chance you’re skipping out on double bit, and probably not horse collar unless it’s tight), but when they earn Castle age (I mistakenly said FC, not advocating an FC on open maps) they get Wheel for free, giving them a 3 villager advantage. That is not useless. That’s a meaningful bonus even at 35~40 vills in after a long feudal war. I think we’d call this a general improvement over the current bonus, where you get a little more wood because double bit on the way up.
Casus, while it’d be very strong on a closed map, all the bonuses are delayed, meaning for that time, you have an inefficient economy an opponent will gain more from while you delay for the savings. The slower tech means the resources you “saved” will be partially offset by the resources an opponent gained with the more efficient economy during that time. Wheel putting you multiple vills ahead in Castle age is comparable, but worse, to Vikings (who get the wheel immediately in feudal and hand cart in castle) and comparable and debatably equal to Persians, Britons, Teutons, or Indians, who all have absurd eco bonuses of their own to compensate.
The fact that you both came up with a different opinion on it immediately is the reason I like it. I had the same thoughts.
Like Casus said, it would save 2500-3000 res over the whole game, plus you immediately get an eco advantage over your opponent as you are getting all of your economy upgrades immediately, for free, while they have to pay for them+wait for them to come in and then pay off. It is far away from “useless”
No. The suggestion is, if you reach Castle age, you get the Feudal upgrades for free (or if Imp, castle). You’ll get the eco upgrade costs removed, but unless you pay upfront for the tech, you’ll permanently be a tier of eco techs behind.
After a 40 vills Feudal war, you have Wheelbarrow, Double Bit Axe and Horse Collar - All the useful economy technologies. FC is nearly impossible on open maps. You can already easily get the first wood upgrade while eating the second Boar. Anyways it is very strong on Arena.
But what if you’re Burgundians and you know if you get to Castle age without wheelbarrow you’ll get it for free.
You aren’t letting the player be autonomous in your head. Just because players normally get wheelbarrow in extended feudal wars doesn’t mean a civ that benefits from delaying it will ignore that bonus and get it anyway. Delaying it for a three vill advantage is reasonable, I think. It’s a risk. Given what we’re currently risking on the Burgundians (oh man, those 40 seconds [3 minutes?] of early double bit is juicy) I think this has the potential to be an upgrade to the current civ bonus if not a distinct sidegrade and it makes the civ easier to approach, I think.
I definitely misspoke when I said FC because you won’t on an open map, I mean reach castle from an extended feudal war.
And you prove that you are drunk, as you haven’t read any of my earlier posts, I misread the op, lol. Pay attention before you decide to start arguing with someone
certainly that’s the play on a closed map, but the burgundians have a clock on a map that tends to go late since they’re missing some crucial techs for lategame comps. further, I’d still rather have the Vikings eco and I’d probably favor a few of the other more focused bonuses on arena over this. That, and having your eco techs later has it’s own cost, but I’ve been over that.
on an open map, feudal age runs longer, and the value your opponent will get from having those techs earlier will vastly outweigh any savings you get from skipping them except wheelbarrow, and having an otherwise generic feudal age compensates for that totally in my eyes.
With the exception of wood upgrades, most eco upgrades aren’t that important to be researched as soon as you hit the respective age.
WB is almost always researched in castle age for example, farm upgrades too, unless you go heavily on farms. Granted, some more focused civ bonus are more effective, but this would compensate with the huge amount of upgrades that it’s reach.
Yes, Wheelbarrow for free in castle age is the normal time it’d be upgraded. That’s the real benefit that’ll apply to most (if not all) games. That being said, this is an eco bonus that only clicks on in castle age and as such it has to be really, really good to be meaningful. I honestly don’t think in the best case that it’s overtuned with that caveat in mind.
Have you ever cursed yourself playing pocket because you were going for a boom and forgot double bit axe? This eco will run like that if you’re going for the discount, until the discount happens. This is not free.
So i reckon we can all agree the burg player will likely not take the mining upgrades and wheel barrow. They could reach castle age faster than the standard cav builds that incorporate wheel barrow yet still have wheel barrow upon reaching that age.
If i was burg i would likely still take double bit axe, and horse collar would be situational.
Either way delaying wheel barrow means farming will be slightly slower while you age up, but i can’t imagine you’re losing 175 f.
Is town watch also classified? And hand cart is an undeniable win on top of the last mining upgrades in imperial.
So definitely more useful than the current pile of garage bonus… But either way likely more useful on closed maps than open maps.
I see this as almost the inverse of the Burmese bonus everything except wood cutting upgrades free