Another set of Balance Suggestions

TheConqueror753 · March 16, 2022, 2:45am

It’s been a while since I’ve done one of these. By each civ, I have put an emoji saying whether I consider the changes to be a net buff, a net nerf, or just a change. Each change also has what I primarily consider it to be. Also bear in mind that a lot of the UT changes are just suggestions or ideas, I’m welcome to anything else. Make sure you take the UT suggestions with a grain of salt, most of them are based on a 5-10 minute google search about the civ, and then trying to turn that into a tech. I’ve added a by suggestions that are just general ideas, and not necessarily actual balance changes suggestions. Here goes.

Berbers:

Lose access to Genitour. It’s a unit that doesn’t fit with them, both from a historical standpoint, and from a gameplay standpoint. They never really use it, no-one in their team really uses it, it just doesn’t really ever see any use. Sometimes it does, but it’s so rare it should be removed from the Berbers.
Kasbah becomes the new team bonus. It may need a nerf to a 20% buff to team castles, because it is no longer locked behind a tech.
Possible new castle age tech: Rashidun Cavalry: Costs 350F, 300G, takes 50 seconds to research. Whenever cavalry units have less than 50% HP they move 7% faster. They would likely have to function as their own group, so they never slow to the pace of slower units while under half HP. They could even function as individual units, even when selected, to allow smoother disengagements. This allows cavalry to quickly disengage if required. Most cavalry have a base speed of 1.45 tiles per second, this increases it to 1.5515 per second, allowing Berber cavalry to escape. This makes sense in terms of how fast and maneuverable Berber cavalry armies were, and synergies pretty well with Magrebhi camels, because camel troops can escape, heal, and come back into combat.

Bohemians:

Only the Feudal Age mining techs are free, having the castle age techs as well is too strong.
Spearmen do 15% bonus damage. Right now, their army comp is too strong in the lategame, with cavalry being very ineffective. This should keep the bonus somewhat, but in a more balanced form.
Monasteries cost -50 wood. Now, instead of buying 4 monasteries for 300 wood, they have to spend 500 wood, which is a significant difference, but still lets them do the 4 monastery play, just not as fast.
Hussite Reforms lets you train monks for either food or gold. Right now, most people who are using monks have their economy geared towards gold, and the other players won’t use monks enough to justify the cost.
Hussite Reforms food cost decreases from 800 to 600, making it more accessible to the players using monks.
Hussite Reforms lets monks always heal an extra unit passively at 50% standard healing rate. This lets them heal two units at once, or heal and convert at the same time. This is just a little nudge to make Hussite Reforms more viable for more people.
Hussite Wagon now resets its attack after 10 seconds, so that you don’t have to start a fight with the minor projectiles.
Hussite Wagon loses the Hussite Wagon armor class, and gains the regular building armor class. This makes more units viable again it, evening the playing field a bit.
Hussite Wagon HP decreased from 200 to 170, Elite Wagon from 250 to 220. This just makes them die sooner, and decreases the need to have mangonels as a counter.

Britons:

Britons no longer get +1 range in Castle Age for free, the Imp range stays. This means they no longer outrange mangonels, and is meant to encourage using Longbows.
Longbowmen (Both Versions), get +1 range, to encourage use over normal archer line.
Yeomen no longer gives +2 attack to towers. This bonus makes no sense, and is almost never used.
Yeomen now also trains Longbowmen 15% faster, changing the training time from 18 seconds to just over 15 seconds. This is all about pushing Britons towards Longbows, by making it easier to tech into.

Bulgarians:

Kreposts can now research Elite Konnik, and possible the Unique Techs as well. This makes Krepost play more viable, because a castle is no longer a must to get all the upgrades.
Dismounted Konnik now has an attack speed of 1.9, closer to a mounted version with stirrups. It’s just really weak, like sure, it’s a distraction, but it typically dies really fast and hits too slow to deal much damage. For reference it currently has a reload speed of 2.4.
Dismounted Konniks have a recharge bar, that can only be increased while garrisoned in a Krepost or Castle. When the recharge bar reaches full charge, the dismounted Konnik turns back into a mounted version. Not sure how long the recharge would take.

Burgundians:

Flemish Revolution removed.
Flemish Militia can be trained from TCs now, without the tech.
Flemish Militia can be trained in Castle Age, and upgrade for free upon reaching Imp. Castle Age Flemish Militia have 65 HP, 9 Melee Attack, 1 Melee Armor (No change), 1 Pierce Armor (No change), 5 line of sight, and half the bonus damage in each category that the Imp Version has.
Flemish Revolution possibly replaced with Shock Cavalry Training: Costs 900F, 700G, 40 Seconds research time. Coustillier’s recharge their attack 10 seconds faster, 30 seconds instead of 40.

Burmese:

Cavalry now get +1/+3/+5 attack against archers in Feudal/Castle/Imperial. The current UT just doesn’t solve their issues with archers, it requires a castle, and comes in way too late.
Manipur Cavalry and Howdah are swapped. The current order makes absolutely no sense, because Elephants aren’t very viable in Castle Age usually.
Manipur Cavalry now reverts to the old effect somewhat: Cavalry and Arambai get +3 attack against buildings, Elephants get +5. This gives Burmese cavalry more of an identity as a base pushing force, meaning they need less/no siege.
Manipur Cavalry cost decreased from 650F 400G to 550F, 350G, to make it more accessible earlier, if people want to use it to push the enemy base.
Arambai are now affected by Parthian tactics, making them better, because they are currently too weak.

Celts:

Stronghold possibly replaced with Schiltron: Costs 450F, 300G, 50 seconds to research: Schiltron gives spear line +2 attack, and +1 pierce armor. This is aimed at encouraging Pike Siege pushes, which are already decent with Celts, but less so with the current Arabia. It also encourages straight Pike Siege, rather than mixing in other units. It also serves to remove Stronghold, which is probably most important, because the tech is almost useless usually.

Chinese:

Now only start with +2 villagers, but -150 food. This should keep their eco relatively strong, but serve in particular to bridge the massive skill gap required to play them by making the start a bit more manageable.
Chu Ko Nu now cost 40G instead of 35G. They are currently too cheap for how good they are. It’s good they are cheaper than Archers, because we want people to use more Unique Units to increase gameplay diversity, but they shouldn’t be too easy to mass up.

Cumans:

Stables and Archery Ranges now cost -50W, instead of -75. They are too easy to spam down otherwise.
Feudal Ram removed, but Capped Ram given for free in Castle Age. The Feudal Ram push is too hard to play, and isn’t anywhere near as good as the 2nd TC typically. Free Capped ram in Castle would more useful. To make Feudal rams, you need a blacksmith, then a siege workshop, as well as another military building to give support, which means you definitely need a barracks. It just isn’t very effective in Feudal.
Cuman Mercenaries changed. Cumans and all their Allies can now create Mercenary Kipchaks at the Archery range. Cuman Mercenaries can only be trained if the player training them currently owns less than 20 Cuman Mercenaries. They are not affected by blacksmith or stable technologies, but they are affected by bonuses and unique techs. Cuman Mercenaries cost 55W, 45G, take 15 seconds to train have 70 HP, fire 4 arrows, main arrow dealing 8 pierce damage and the secondary arrows dealing 0 melee damage. They have a rate of fire of 1.9, a frame delay of 0.6, 7 range, 100% accuracy, a projectile speed of 7, 4 melee armor, 5 pierce armor, 1.5 speed, and 7 tiles line of sight. Their stats are typically better than an Elite Kipchak, but they are a lot more expensive, are limited to 20 at once, and aren’t affected by blacksmith or stable upgrades. They effectively have all of those upgrades already though. Also not affected by archery range upgrades or chemistry. Affected by ballistics though. This unit is aimed at making Cuman Mercenaries more viable, without being overwhelming, and hopefully still being good.

Ethiopians:

Tower max line of sight for everyone increased by 5, because right now it actually has a limit that invalidates the Ethiopian team bonus when towers are pretty much fully upgraded. This is basically a bug fix or fixing an oversight.
Royal Heirs possibly decreases the Shotel Warrior gold cost by 5 as well, to make it easier to spam for longer.

Franks:

Castles now cost -20% stone, so they can’t be spammed everywhere as easily.
Cavalry gets +10% HP in Feudal, +20% in Castle and Imp. This nerfs their scout rush, letting other civs better keep up in the early game, while still keeping Frankish Knights about the same.
Foragers work 10% faster instead of 15%, knocking down their early eco slightly. I’m fine with this not happening if the chivalry nerf happens.=
Chivalry now lets the Knight Line heal slowly and returns 33% of their gold cost when they die. This completely removes the knight spam mechanic, but means they need less knights because they last longer.

Goths:

Hunters no longer carry extra food.
Hunter automatically drop off food within 20 tiles of the player TCs. This will hopefully not let them lame too badly, but they now have a better eco bonus, because hunt is wasted less, and is more user friendly. This is effectively the Khmer bonus for hunt, but if we had it too much like the Khmer bonus, the Goths will just go forward and lame, and this a compromise trying to prevent that.
Possibly gains Plate Barding Armor, letting them do more than just Infantry in the lategame.

Huns:

Both versions of Tarkan’s get +2 attack against regular buildings, making them more effective at destroying bases.

Incas:

Team bonus changed to give each team member a Llama. Possibly gives the Incan player two Llamas.
All melee units now get +3 Pierce armor while standing on an Incan farm. Makes their defense better, makes them harder to raid with archers, and reflects the tiered farming they used.
Andean Sling possibly replaced with El Dorado: El Dorado costs 400F, 700G, and takes 50 seconds to research. Yes, I know it’s a Mayan UT, but that should be renamed, because El Dorado is based on South America. El Dorado makes Eagles cost 30% less gold. By reducing the gold cost by 15, Incan Eagles now become better in comparison to Aztec and Mayan eagles. If you look at Mayans and Aztecs, they both have better Eagles than Incas, as well a gold related bonus (Longer lasting res, 50 extra gold and relics generating faster), so I think it’s fair that Incas get a straight discount.
The El Dorado change above may need the unique tech order to be swapped.
Elite Slinger Added. Elite Slinger costs 800F, 500W, and takes 30 seconds to research. Elite Slingers have 50 HP, and 6 attack. Their projectile speed increases from 5.5 to 6, and their minimum range is removed. They have 1 pierce armor, all other stats are the same as regular slinger. This is just to add a tech that feels like it’s missing.

Indians:

Imperial Camel attack changes to 11, making it more on par with the Paladin.
Camel Units get +2 attack vs buildings, keeping the current team bonus, but making it only Indian specific.
Team bonus changed to give stable units +1 pierce armor in Imperial Age.
Battle Elephants added, to make it more historical, and more interesting as a civ that has camels, elephants and hussars, but no knight line.
Shatagni increases hand cannon accuracy by 10%, in order to try and negate the accuracy nerf that the +1 range actually gives.
Elite Elephant archer gets 5 range, Elephant archer cost decreased from 70G to 65G. Elephant archer HP decreased from 280 to 250, Elite decreased from 330 to 300. This is trying to make Elephant archers more viable overall, but less overbearing if you can get the mass.

Italians:

University and Archery Range techs are 33% cheaper, dock techs are 15% cheaper. This is just extending the discount bonus to their primary military building, making their military easier to upgrade.
Fishing ship discount decreased from 15% to 10% to make it less strong on water maps.
Condottiero available in Castle Age with a free upgrade in Imp. This is because Pavisse currently affects a unit that doesn’t even exist in Castle Age. Castle Age Condos have 60 HP, 9 Melee attack, 0 armor, and 5 tile line of sight. All other stats are the same as the Imperial Age version.
Condottiero are still pretty bad against gunpowder units, because although they negate bonus damage, they still take massive regular damage. As a solution, the damage they receive could be reduced by however much damage gunpowder they negate, making them a more viable counter against gunpowder.
Elite Genoese Crossbow have all of their bonus damage levels reduced by 1, but get +1 attack, making the upgrade a bit more worthwhile. Upgrade gold cost decreased from 750 to 600 to make it more reasonable for the benefits.

Magyars:

Food no longer rots. This will hopefully be a small eco boost required to make them a better civ, because they already have a really strong lategame, they just have to reach it.

Mayans:

Longer lasting resources decreased to 10%, it’s too strong right now.
Archer line discount changed to become 10%/15%/20% in Feudal/Castle/Imperial, instead of 10%/20%/30%. Mayan archers are too strong and cheap, so this addresses that in the later game.
El Dorado renamed to Cotton Armor. Cotton Armor historically makes a lot more sense as a name, especially with the effect, and it lets Incas have El Dorado.

Mongols:

Nomads instantly unlocks max pop, like the Huns bonus. It’s next to useless currently.

Persians:

Mahouts now affects War Elephants by default.
Mahouts possibly replaced with Immortals: Immortals costs 1000F, 800G, and 70 takes seconds to research. Whenever a non-hussar cavalry unit dies, each other cavalry unit within 1 tile gets +1/+1 armor and +1 attack. This boost does not stack, but cannot be removed. This reflects how whenever one of the Persian elite soldiers died, another would take their armor and their place pretty much immediately.

Poles:

Folwark range increased by 1 tile. Although you can now fit 12 farms in here, the collection rate will likely be reduced, because they have to be by the edge of the area.
Folwark collection rate changes from 10% food to 5% food. This is needed to help balance out the change about. Although you can now fit 50% more farms in, you can only collect 75% of what you could before, and that’s assuming you put all 12 in. By reducing the rate of fast food, they become weaker at booming, but it becomes easier to use the bonus in more stressful open maps where you only have a few seconds to place farms.
Folwark now lets you garrison 5 villagers. To accompany the nerfs to collection rate, we can now protect 5 villagers. 5 makes sense for a few reasons. First, the Folwark provides 5 pop space, so that’s logical. Second, on an open map, it means you won’t lose all the villagers, but you will probably still lose several, because it’s a prime raiding target, with lots of villagers if you are trying to make the most of the bonus, but while 5 of them can be saved, the rest are all at risk. This will make raiding berries harder in the early game, but the changes are more aimed at hitting the mid/lategame.
Szlachta Privileges gives now only gives a 40% discount. This change is aimed at reducing the ridiculous knight spam, yet still giving a discount. It will hopefully also promote Obuch play again, because otherwise Obuch is a lot less common than the knight spam.

Portuguese:

Team bonus is now Outposts cost no stone. This fits with the exploration theme, and is a lot more useful in 1v1s than the current bonus. It also promotes use of an underused building.
Techs now researched 50% faster. The 30% currently is very bland, and doesn’t really give much of a benefit in terms of timing.
Gains Genitour as a regional unit, because it historically makes sense, and can be better used than with the Berbers. May need stat changes.
Feitoria needs a change, but I don’t currently have any ideas.

Saracens:

Mameluke gold cost decreased from 85 to 80, or even 75. It’s a great unit, but there isn’t much point of a great unit if it never sees use. I can’t even remember seeing it used in team games, although I don’t play too many of those, so I could be wrong about that.
Madrasah is really bad, you don’t want your monks to die. It now gives you 15 gold per conversion, making monk play more viable.

Sicilians:

Castles are only built 50% faster, 100% is ridiculous, but much lower and it’s too close to Spanish.
Cavalry no longer get the 50% bonus damage reduction. It’s just too strong, and means Sicilians will basically only play cav. This also means we can probably keep Hauberk the way it is, because the biggest problem is how it interacts with the bonus damage.
Serjeants can now also construct siege weapons starting in Castle Age. It requires a blacksmith, but not a siege workshop. This makes Serjeants more unique, and more interesting as a unit.
Serjeants now cost 25 gold instead of 35. Their cost is way too high for what they are, especially considering Obuch, a really good infantry UU only costs 20G. The high food cost is also a limiting factor to Serjeant spam in Feudal Age, because it interferes with making villagers.
Serjeants now fire arrows when garrisoned in Donjons, promoting the Donjon rush or just general Donjon play. They would fire less arrows than villagers though.
First Crusade is possibly changed so that now Serjeants can construct any buildings, in addition to what they already have. They build at 33% of the rate of a villager though. The conversion resistance is kept. Just tossing this idea out there.

Slavs:

Druzhina now costs 1100F 400G instead of 1200F 500G. It’s too expensive, considering you want to be spamming infantry at the same time. I’m fine if this doesn’t happen though.
Orthodoxy now means that whenever monks are converting a unit or healing, they get +5/+5 armor. Units being healed get +3/+3 armor while they are being healed. The tech is pretty bad right now, this is aimed at making it a bit better.

Spanish:

No gold blacksmith techs extended to bloodlines and the university techs. The bonus is good, but this would hopefully make it a bit better. It could also be extended to Arson and Supplies.
Missionaries can now pick up relics. They are a weak unit, but by doing this, they can now be used to grab relics quickly.
Gains Genitour as a regional unit, because it historically makes sense, and can be better used than with Berbers. May need stat changes.

Tatars:

Flaming Camels can be made in Imperial Age without needing Timurid Siegecraft. It probably won’t make them better, but at least they aren’t locked behind an expensive tech anymore.

Turks:

Steppe Lancers added to tech tree and the scout line bonuses are extended to it. I’m not sure about the upgrade being free, but it could be an option. This reflects their Steppe Ancestry, and possibly opens up some new options.

Vietnamese:

Team bonus changed to enemy positions revealed at game start.
Imperial Skirmisher becomes a unique unit bonus only for the Vietnamese.
Paper Money possibly changed so that team lumberjacks now generate gold at a rate of 0.005 per second. For perspective, Burgundian Vineyards makes farmers generate gold at 0.017 per second. The cost can be changed from 500F 300W to 800F 600G to balance this more. Just an interesting idea I had.

Vikings:

Wheelbarrow and Handcart no longer free, but research twice as fast, and cost only 50% of their usual cost.

Battle Elephants:

Battle Elephants (Both Versions) have their blast radius increased to 0.5 tiles instead of 0.4, making them better in lower numbers.
Battle Elephants get a new armor class, so that they don’t receive the same amount of bonus damage as war elephants do. They probably take about half as much bonus damage in this class as they do in the war elephant one, but the numbers could vary.

Steppe Lancers:

Elite Upgrade cost reduced from 900F 550G to 750F 450G. It’s just too expensive for an underused unit.
Steppe Lancers possibly get an attack bonus against civilian units, to make them even better raiders.
OR Steppe Lancers possibly get a low attack bonus against siege units, making them siege snipers. Definitely a lot worse than Magyar Huszars though.

I think that’s all. Congrats if you read it all, tell me what you think below.

Ifavorwining · March 16, 2022, 3:15am

I disagree with most of these, but it was interesting to read

TheConqueror753 · March 16, 2022, 3:18am

More importantly, what do you think of the change with adding arrows indicating the changes?

emarz4697 · March 16, 2022, 3:24am

For the bereber ut, what if you engage with a group of knights then disengage midway and find that some of them have lower then 50% and some dont. The group will move at the speed of the slower units and you wont benifit from the bonus unless you filter your units to greater/less than 50% hp which is way too micro intensive for a retreat. Unless its something along the lines of “if the total hp of a group is less than 50%” but even then it becomes tricky to know if you have the bonus or not. There are other passive bonuses out there which noobs like myself benefit from without knowing it 100% but i feel this one is different cause it constantly switches on or off depending the circumstanes. E.g. total hp of your group is less than 50% → you have the boost → enemy xbow snipe 1 hp knight → you lose the boost.

As for the incan bonus with farms it would be super op in xbow vs xbow situations. In castle age you would be able to spare 60 wood and a forward villager to build a farm in say a key location close to enemy base, and then you can run to it when in danger just like you would run to a hill (bonus points if its on a hill 11) and enemy xbow wont be able to engage yours at all, +3 pierce armor is insane, so maybe have it affect certian units only like villagers only or melee units (they cant force engagement unless they step of the farm or you carpet the whole area with farms)

TheConqueror753 · March 16, 2022, 3:26am

Yeah, I’ll change that to make it more balanced. I tend to just start with ideas, and then see what people say, and then re-evaluate. Ok, I’ve changed both bonuses.

StarPeach703575 · March 16, 2022, 4:41am

I don’t agree most of the list. The things I fully agree is buff on the Steppe Lancer and Battle Elephant.
However, I don’t think that huge change of balance is needed. And some change kill the civ characteristics and make too bland which I don’t support it. (If Chivalry nerf to only 20%. Franks will get only Huns bonus after researching UT. You think it is desirable for design perspective? Same for Szlachta Privileges and Berbers cheaper Knight.)

Also, what do you think of balance in each map? Balance only concern about Arabia or Other popular map such as Arena balance is important as well? I ask this question because you suggest significant nerf on both Bohemians and Poles which is not top-tier civ in Arabia but bit too strong or OP on Arena, while suggesting more Buff to Turks. Turks need more nerf than buff in Arena perspective. All gunpowder tech instantly free means Turks instantly unlock BBT after reaching Imperial age and opponent cannot deal with their push even more. Instant Chemistry itself make them Far ahead than other gunpowder civ and early imp in Arena in general and they definitely don’t need more.

TheConqueror753 · March 16, 2022, 4:48am

That’s why I also suggested an alternative.

True, I forgot about that. Maybe 40% discount then?

Bohemians are the S tier arena civ right now, hence the nerfs, and the Polish Boom is really strong. They could be buffed on more open maps though, I’m open to suggestions.

Didn’t even think about that, I’ll remove it. I’m just not really sure how I would balance Turks.

StarPeach703575 · March 16, 2022, 5:06am

Maybe I prefer alternative in this case. It remove overlap between Franks and Huns, and Health regeneration or slight gold return might not OP in imp.

I think it can be 50% discount then. But tbh, I doubt semi-trash knight is most scariest unit of Poles in closed map that need nerf. I feel like stone to gold generation and Obuch is more related to the Poles strength in the closed map, while cheap Knight is more useful option in open map.

Yeah. definitely, maybe nerf is not ideal because they don’t perform that well in open map, but more buff will make them Broken in closed map.

FenomenoAOC · March 16, 2022, 5:15am

Folwark without and food upgrades provide low ammount of food. If you change it from 10% to 5% it would be too low. Now, Folwark kicks-in in late castle age, with that change. In imperial age from 55 food you would obtain 27.5. This is massive and bassicly kills Polish eco and bonus is too low and makes player rather play Slavs or Khmer for real bonus.

Another bonus that kills Poles. I rather play Berbers. So as Poles you have to research expensive technology to make only knights only gold cost reduced. Berbers in imperial age have all cav cheaper by 20% both food and gold for free + they have access to camel + last cav armor.

NarrowBubbles54 · March 16, 2022, 5:18am

nonono never :)) 6 vill with - 200 f it is weak, now do follow you it supper nerf and make they verry weak, and chukonu need nerf plume archer first before nerf opther unique unit :v

FranksAreLame · March 16, 2022, 5:21am

This post is absolutely HUGE. I’ll give comments on most changes, but because I won’t have time, I’ll jot my thoughts down in separate posts as I gradually go down yours.

Berbers

Removal of Genitour
I initially disagreed with the Genitour loss, but as I tried to convert it to words I found that the points made are accurate, and they should be given to another civilization. I scrolled down to the Spanish changes to see if you put Genitours there, and I agree.
If the Spanish were to be given Genitours, however, then they would need to give themselves a reason to train 'em; it’s one of the reasons why Berbers don’t often make Genitours today - they have no bonus that applies. Take the Italians and Viets, for example. They also have a shared Unique Unit as a team bonus: Condottieri & Imperial Skirmishers, respectively. Italian Condottieri are better than generics because Pavise gives them extra armour, and Viet IS are better than generics because Viet archers have extra health. Berber Genitours are in fact worse than generic, not just because of the aforementioned lack of a bonus or Unique Tech, but also because the Berbers do not have Parthian Tactics.
Kasbah is the new team bonus
Approved, but I’m sceptical of how strong it would be considering it’s currently locked behind a Unique Tech. The numbers might just need to be tweaked beyond -5%.
Rashidun Cavalry
This one is a bit too complex for my tastes. It’s befitting as Hell for a “Unique” Technology, sure, and I appreciate the intended synergy with Maghrebi Camels, but honestly, the Berbers already have enough boni for their cavalry.
This is just a spitball, but maybe the new tech could have something to do with their Castles, a la Kasbah. Perhaps it could do something for Petards, which are pretty much untouched and forgotten about as a unit. A speed bonus or improved damage vs fortifications is highly possible.

Spanish

Gold-less techs
I wouldn’t wanna branch this out too far, but I’m okay with applying it to Supplies & Arson.
Missionaries can pick up relics
I understand fully why the Ensemble never allowed them to do this, as it makes relic swiping way too easy for the Spaniards. As the game progressed and more and more incentives for the taking of relics was added, though, I think the Missionaries deserve a buff.
Genitours
As I mentioned above, I am more than approving of this, but the Spanish need another bonus to ensure that they actually play with their new toys. My proposal:
Overhaul Supremacy.
I know, I know. This take is hotter than the Sun. But, Supremacy’s meme status has long run dry. It’s rarely researched and the Villagers’ enhanced offensive stats is almost rendered moot by their inability to make formations and change stance. It’s only good, as far as I’m concerned, for making Villagers survive raids for a bit longer.
My suggestion is to no longer make it a Villager-focused tech, but rather a technology that benefits both their gunpowder and cavalry by doing two things:

Move the fire rate bonus for Gunpowder units to the technology and increase it to 25%.
Cavalry Archers (including Conquistadores & Genitours) +3 (give or take) versus archers, similar to Manipur Cavalry.
Unrelated to the new Supremacy, but Spanish gain Parthian Tactics; Conquistadores & Genitours now benefit from it.
3.1: Spanish lose Skirmisher and/or Elite Skirmisher.
3.2: Conquistadores have less armour.
I suspect that this would require a multitude of balancing changes, but it serves to make the Spanish some kind of counterpart to the Turks, where they were given boni to their non-gunpowder units as a reference to the Seljuks, this would let the Spanish branch out a bit more but with a heftier focus on Cavalry Archers, while also weakening their Castle Age dominance provided by their Conquistadores.

Green4uu · March 16, 2022, 5:24am

this is very counter-intuitive, wonky and overall doesn’t feel nice to play. I can’t say I’m a fan of that. Berbers are fine. They have some of the strongest units in the game but no eco bonus to compensate for it. They are a “fair deal”.

Arena is a flawed mode, where a civ like Bohemians shines. I would say perhaps reduce their wood bonus on Blacksmiths by +25w, having Monastery, Blacksmith AND University for so cheap is too much. Perhaps University can stay. But don’t remove the mining techs. The tech tree for Bohemians is EXTREMELY narrow, rivaling civs like Aztecs or Bulgarians. They already have very average Archer-line, not even having Thumb Ring. Their cavalry is unplayable and bottom 5 in the game, you never do more than the occasional Castle Age Knight as Bohemians on an open map. Their Siege Workshop is also average, lacking iirc Siege Ram and Siege Onager so in spite of having Houfnice they can’t do strats like Halb Siege Ram push that are so common for civs like Teutons or Bulgarians. Finally, Castle Age Handcannoneer, while annoying in some circumstances, dies hard to Skirmisher play.

Their Unique Unit is very gimmicky to use, the best use I found is run 1 under each enemy TC to idle the economy, they are fairly strong at that but also countered by equal resources worth of Knights AND by Mangonels. Their projectile is awkward to aim and the 6 range holds them back fairly hard in dealing actual damage in Castle Age, although this is a good unit in the end, it’s not as strong as say Conquistador or Mangudai so if we wanna nerf Hussite Wagon we should nerf those also.

If anything, I think their Monk flood could cost -90% gold. Full Trash Monks is counter-intuitive, but if each cost 10-20g, it wouldn’t be a viable strat in Imp. Other than that, the civ is fine, it’s top tier in Arena but that’s fine, if you nerf Bohemians it’s just back to Aztecs or Lithuanians or Britons or Burgundians again, Arena is just a broken mode because when you can’t execute 80% of strats due to Stone Walls, some civs will always be OP.

the bonus should stay at +25% because you are not meant to flood Paladin and beat Halbs, Paladin struggles vs Burmese/Japanese Halbs also, it’s fine if vs these civs, the classic Paladin civs go for something else, such as Throwing Axeman or Champion. I assume this is salt from Black Forest games where people have gotten used to pocket Knight civ for so long that they expect Knight flood to be viable in 100% of games as a strat.

I am not sure on this, in principle I could see a small HP nerf but iirc it has an insane Wood cost, especially for early Castle Age economies, something like 160w iirc, not even Organ Guns are this expensive.

+1 range is part of the Britons’ identity and should stay. I am not sure why they should lose their bonus, they already don’t have Thumb Ring and their Knights are not great either in Castle Age, it’s fine if vs ONE civ you cannot do Mangonel defense, do mass Scorpions instead, vs an aggressive Archer player, holding him off your eco is enough anyway, and Mangonels still achieve this vs Britons.

likewise makes no sense, Britons are working fine, no need to change them.

the devs intentionally left technologies out of the Krepost as a balancing decision. If you wanna do a Krepost rush, you renounce to having a good eco, at least initially. I sense this comes from the Konnik having increased attack rate (iirc 2.5 or something), and you wanting to have a Krepost rush and just having a better Knight right off the bat with minimal effort. Again this is intentional, you are meant to build a Castle to do techs just like other civs.

The total of the unit is like 120 HP from mounted guy and 40 from unmounted. This is a total of 160 HP in CASTLE age. You also get better attack and the dismounted version keeps a very strong attack, iirc 9 or so. Even if he achieves nothing more than drawing Crossbow fire, still dealing 40 extra damage with Crossbows is like 6 extra arrows the opponent must fire. Furthermore Dismounted Konnik is good vs basically everything and will always get at least 1 attack in, only vs Archer-line they are bad, but that’s the Konnik counter so I don’t see the issue.

yes sure and also upon filling the bar a free TC spawns next to the Krepost. Low elo talk.

would be a fairly useless tech.

this is way too strong. It’s far better than Persians bonus, a civ vs which you already are discouraged from flooding Crossbows, and based on your wording would also apply to Scouts (Burmese have FU Hussar and this bonus would make their Hussar far better than for example Poles Hussar with the bonus). The tech needs to stay behind a Castle.

Iirc the devs removed old Manipur Cavalry because it was too strong at leveling bases with an Arambai blob. Basically Arambai is a cav archer but once massed it worked like a Ram also, and that was unintended, especially vs TCs.

Arambai are not too weak. Castle age version is average and the FU Imperial version is a fairly good unit, probably top 5-10 UU in the game.

the Spears would still die to Crossbow play as Crossbows have bonus damage vs Spear line (iirc 4).

I don’t think the Chinese start is so insanely hard that it needs to be made easier for low elo players. If you struggle, just don’t play Chinese. It’s really not that hard once you understand how it works, it’s house + 7 on wood and you might need to push a deer. And anyway even if you are like let’s say 1300 elo, the wide tech tree of Chinese and their cheaper techs throughout the ages will carry you also, not only the extra Villagers.

Cumans are only good in Feudal and early-to-mid Castle age, nerfing them here without buffing their weak Imperial age is risky.

maybe first Ram should cost -75% wood. Currently it’s too hard to find the 200w for the Workshop and the 175w for each Ram in Feudal age.

doesn’t make sense, and team games are not so important that we need to accommodate every single team bonus to account for such possibilities. The team bonus functions nicely in 1v1 and in the early stages of team games, it’s not meant to be some post-Imp full map vision hack.

you can see from such posts that you base yourself mostly on Team Games, which are more for fun than truly balanced, because nobody thinks that Franks are too strong in 1v1, so they don’t need a nerf. If you wanted to raise 1v1 issues, you would point at Burgundians earlier upgrades, Meso 3 Pierce Armor EWs, Tatars eco smoothness throughout the ages AND insane late Imp army composition… those are all far more pressing issues in 1v1 than some random 50 extra Food a Franks player with their limited tech tree gets. Franks are literally a civ that if you don’t win before min 20-25, you are in trouble generally. They also will go for Knights most of the time so very predictable as well, if you are playing Crossbows all-in as Franks, that’s very weird just because of how many bonuses are focused into Knights production.

makes no sense, might as well make deer spawn under TC for every civ or make Goths start 4 extra sheep. The idea of Deer is the trade off between Scouting and getting upgrades while doing something like Men-at-arms, if you don’t have such trade-off and can both scout and gain the extra food, then there is no point in making Deer spawn far away.

how can you suggest that a civ with such insane infantry flood and pretty much THE BEST infantry civ in the game also gains FU Cavalier play. It just doesn’t make sense.

I feel they are already effective enough, they aren’t meant to level the base immediately, it should still take time to allow for counterplay.

makes no sense, the deal with Eagles is that you have a very strong unit that can both fight well and run under TC while requiring little eco set up. The disadvantage of Eagles should be that you burn Gold at an increased rate, so that once you run out, the game is either won or lost. Meso in general are meant to win the game fast, it doesn’t make sense to give these sorts of bonuses, Meso civs are not some post-Imperial powerhouse that floods EEW from 15 Barracks for 30 min, if you wanna play late game like that pick a civ like Berbers or Tatars.

This is interesting actually, I rly like this idea and helps Incas keep up with Imperial Age Handcannoneers. Definitely should be a thing, stats can be decided but it should roughly compare to a Handcannoneer in Imperial Age.

there is no reason to improve the Imperial Camel because vs Cavalry it already does tons of damage due to bonus and vs buildings it does enough damage due to Team Bonus. It only really struggles vs TC fire and vs Halberdiers and Halberdiers should probably stay an Indians weakness. I could see giving them Supplies or giving them last Infantry armor but absolutely no buffs to their cavalry or cav archers.

So you want 2+4 Pierce Armor Scouts in Castle Age? That sounds like insanity, what would the counterplay to that even be.

this seems reasonable

I disagree, I think Condottiero is fine vs Gunpowder units, you probably envision them winning hard like Huskarl vs Crossbowmen but Handcannoneers are a Imperial unit and slow to mass, it’s fair that Condottiero take some damage back.

makes no sense and sounds like some Lord of the Rings ■■■■.

Folwark is already strong enough, maybe slightly too strong, it doesn’t need buffs.

makes no sense.

makes no sense, civs are meant to have a power spike, if you got the Castle, the tech and the 5-6 Stables and ~40 farms required for the flood, you should be rewarded, there is PLENTY of time to counter this tech, it sounds like you are unhappy that your 3 TC boom + walls isn’t always viable vs 100% of civs.

??? people enjoy different things???

outpost is not underused at all, it has a very nice place in the game and is very balanced, you build it only when you need it for example to scout some archer flank or in Mangonel wars.

makes no sense, this is not AoE4.

35g is fine.

seems an awful idea because you get a MAA-like unit to defend from Villagers rushing the tower but you also get extra arrows. Would be too obnoxious to play vs in Feudal Age.

it’s one of the strongest UTs in the game, it better be expensive. It allows Slavs to beat for example Goths and iirc they tie with Teutons also.

would be too strong in Knight vs Knight civ, for example as Franks you would never make a Knight again vs Tatars due to the Flaming Camels.

dunno Vikings already got hit hard with losing Thumb Ring, if anything I think Berserkers are slightly too strong now, I don’t have a big deal with 1 civ having the best farms in the game.

Elite Steppe Lancer is underused but not weak, they trade very well vs Knights when massed and they trade reasonably vs Pikeman, once you get a mass going it can be hard to stop, not a fan of encouraging win-more.

Overall I would suggest spending more time improving at the game and less trying to come up with balancing changes when you haven’t reached 2.2k+.

TheConqueror753 · March 16, 2022, 6:03am

Just because you only play open maps doesn’t mean that other people don’t play closed maps. Personally I don’t ban anything when I play.

Forgot about those, the discount should be removed for them.

Obviously you haven’t seen them on a map like Arena, because you don’t like that. As soon as they reach their post Imp halb HC Hussite Wagon Houfnice comp (Not saying all of that at once, but always at least Houfnice and Halb), it’s basically GG. If they play it right, it will shred through everything.

Chemistry in Castle Age actually makes their archers playable.

It’s difficult, because they are oppressive on closed maps, and bad on open maps.

The problem is their lategame comp, where they just put the siege units in, and the halbs stop any cav even getting close.

Yes, I suppose the wood cost could be decreased accordingly.

That’s what I originally thought, but I feel like it would be nice to push them more towards Longbows, and have mangonels still be usuable.

The problem is the stone I find. You have an interesting building in the Krepost, but because it can only train Konniks and shoot, it isn’t as useful as the castle, so it gets used less. At the least, it should be able to research Elite Konnik.

Not really, and the numbers can be balanced. It would be interesting if they could be remounted, but I don’t mind either way.

Not really actually. The numbers can be balanced around, but right now, Coustillier tends to be snowball a mass, run in, kill stuff, run back and heal while you wait for the charge attack to reset so you can repeat. By decreasing the cooldown, you need to run back less, and will have more Coustillier on the front lines.

I can see why you can see it like that, although you do have to bear in mind that the other two bonuses are team bonuses, so it makes sense they are weaker.

I’m pretty sure it was actually removed because Burmese couldn’t handle archers, which is why we have the current Manipur Cav, only that comes in after the full in Castle Archer play has already won the game.

I know, but I think it’s ok for them to still die to crossbows, because it encourages pike siege further, and the mangonels then have to kill the crossbows. I also didn’t want to go any higher, because of Tower Shields.

Pretty sure that at low elo people don’t know the build, and do really badly with Chinese. We really shouldn’t have a civ to the point where we can just say “Oh, you can’t play them? Too bad. Don’t play them.” and call it a day. They end up with a two vil lead anyway, so this actually keeps the effect, but makes it more accessible at lower levels.

It’s still too hard to get the wood for all the buildings you need to support the push, hence the suggestion about free capped ram.

It’s literally a bug/oversight, which is why it should be fixed.

I’m basing off a mix, and trying to balance where stuff is too strong or weak.

It’s trying to be the Khmer bonus for hunt, so that they have a smoother early game eco, but if you let them drop off from anywhere, they will just go forward, lame, and then steal all the enemy’s resources.

I said possibly, and also because they don’t have much going for them except infantry. They literally cannot do anything else very well, hence the suggestion. It’s not like it will change them in most games.

They are really gold intensive, and if you look at the three Meso civs, both Mayans and Aztecs have a gold bonus (longer lasting res, and extra starting gold + increased relic generation rate). Incas are the only ones who don’t, in addition to the weakest eagles anyway, so I think it could be a good change.

Removing the current +1/+2 pierce armor, so only 2+3, although it could be changed to only be Imp.

Some is fine. Taking so much damage you get shredded before you even reach the target is less so.

I agree, I just think Mahouts needs a replacement, and that was the first thing I thought of after 5 minutes googling.

Which is why it also has the nerfs to collection rate as a balancing factor.

It’s to buff it on open maps by protecting some of the villagers, but not all of them. It makes about as much sense as Khmer garrisoning in houses.

I don’t even main Arena. There might be plenty of time, but the Polish player can reach a point where they can spam cavalier against straight halb and still win. It’s not a balanced tech.

True, but I think it’s a bit sad that they have a cool UU, but then it gets used a lot less that Szlachta is so good.

The costing stone thing is annoying, and that’s a pretty small niche. It’s a better team bonus than the free vision is, and lets you do some gamechanging stuff.

I know, but Serjeants need a buff.

Really not. Compare it to an Obuch. Serjeants can build a Donjon, Obuch remove armor. Obuch have more HP, less armor, and more attack, although Elite Serjeant has more. The Donjon play with Sicilians is rare, and typically the only Serjeants you see are those spawned by First Crusade. Obuch, a better unit only costs 20G, and the upgrade is a lot cheaper. Serjeants cost way to much for what they give.

True, even if you never see it.

Fine, it can be left alone.

Move it to Imp then, but don’t lock it behind a tech.

TheConqueror753 · March 16, 2022, 6:36am

What? Do you understand how good that bonus is? I think you are being sarcastic, but not totally sure. In effect however, I’ve basically made no change except for making it easier to use at lower levels, because if you do the Chinese start right, you end up with a two vil advantage anyway.

I also suggested nerfing plumes. Reducing the Mayan discount is an indirect nerf.

FranksAreLame · March 16, 2022, 7:09am

Bohemians

Mining techs
I wouldn’t remove Shaft Mining, but if I had to pick I would make them pay for either Gold Mining & Shaft Mining, or Stone Mining & Shaft Mining. Maybe the latter because Bohemians use a lot of gold for their Wagons, Hand Cannoneers & Monks pre-Hussite Reforms, and nerfing their stone mining rate can weaken their Arena presence.
Spearman bonus damage
Nah. Bohemians need this bonus because of the fact that cavalry (especially Scouts) are the Monks’ biggest counter, and cavalry can run behind Hussite Wagons to pick of Hand Cannons and Crossbows. I haven’t seen much of this in particular, though, so I can’t say for sure if the damage reduction would be good or not.
Monastery cost reduction
I would like to see this stay where it is, but lose the discount on Blacksmiths. I feel like the focus should stay somewhat on their Monks & Gunpowder, so keeping the discount on Monasteries & Universities is alright.
Hussite Reforms overhaul
This one isn’t that bad of an idea. I’d still like for HR to turn Monks into trash, but maybe the Monks can have this healing bonus, while the techs keep their change from costing gold to food.
Hussite Wagon armour class change
Pretty clever way to take it down a notch. Approved.

Burmese

Cavalry attack bonus vs archers
I never really liked the Manipur Cavalry change, so I’m fine with moving the tech to a civ bonus. I’m curious if +5 would be a lot for a free bonus in Imperial.
Manipur Cavalry reversion
Approved. I also thought it didn’t make much sense for an elephant-based civilization to have naught but a small armour bonus for their Battle Elephants, when there’s plenty of room to go around for them.
Manipur Cavalry & Howdah swapped
I would approve of this if Howdah got buffed so that it befits an Imperial Age UT. Maybe at least make it +2/+2 instead of +1/+2.

Celts

Stronghold overhaul
Nope. I like the fire rate increase, as it gives Celts a little bit of a defensive boost, while encouraging Tower play beyond Feudal. I would rather have Stronghold focus on the latter, by removing the Castle fire rate bonus and increasing the bonus to Towers to ~33%. To add to this, I would probably give Celts Arrowslits for free.
This is because I want to see more Towers in Castle & Imperial, but because Castles themselves are so strong, there’s not much of a reason to if you’re not Japanese or making Bombard Towers.

Ethiopians

Team bonus
Yep. I always thought it was pretty weak, and something that should’ve been fixed long ago.

Huns

Tarkans extra attack vs buildings
I always thought Tarkans were a little bit suckish at their job, so I approve, but it would need to come with an extra change:
Lose Capped Ram & Siege Ram; gain Onager & Siege Onager OR Heavy Scorpion
Rams are the only strong, non-Trebuchet siege weapon Huns get, and thus it contends with the Tarkans’ main purpose of being melee building destroyers, so if Hunnic Siege Workshops were to shift around, there would be more incentive for training Tarkans.
I also had a thought for a while about how to further entice Tarkan production, and that’s by changing Marauders, similar to how I proposed a change to Supremacy in my Spanish review above:

Huns gain Steppe Lancer & Elite Steppe Lancer
Marauders now increases Steppe Lancer & Tarkan attack by 1
Something small and a little bit cute that MIGHT be worthwhile, also:
Sappers free

Magyars

Eco bonus
Magyars don’t need one. What they need is a change to their wild animal attack bonus, because it’s so small and saves only a couple seconds.

Mongols

Nomads
I remember participating in a discussion about this tech a while ago, and I came to find that Nomads would be alright if the saved population would apply to Castles, Town Centers & other population-increasing buildings, not just Houses.

TougherTrack508 · March 16, 2022, 7:25am

Some creative ideas here that I hadn’t seen before. Also a lot of good ideas and a lot of terrible ideas.

In general I’m not fond of your new team bonuses and UTs.
I’m also not a fan of shaving bonuses down to make them less noticeable.

I feel these ideas deserve particular (positive) attention:

Dismounted Konniks mounting a horse again
Your Celts UT Schiltron
Chinese start with 1 less vill but 50 extra food
Your Goths hunt mechanic
Your Inca UT El Dorado
Elite Slinger
Reducing the Italian Fishing Ship discount. (Honestly I’d completely remove the discount.)
Rename El Dorado to Cotton Armour
Portuguese faster research speed increased
Serjeants fire arrows from Donjons

Also your team bonus suggestion for Indians deserves a highlight for being possibly the worst balance suggestion I’ve ever seen.

Also I appreciate seeing support for some old ideas, such as changing which civs have genitours and changing the Vietnamese team bonus.

TheConqueror753 · March 16, 2022, 7:26am

Not remove the techs from the tech tree. I mean they no longer get the castle ones for free.

The monastery discount is too extreme on arena though, it lets them build 4 monasteries for the price of 2 or 3 for another civ.

Stronghold is really had though, due to Celts missing Bracer.

They do kind of need an eco bonus to help them reach the later stages of the game. I also support being able to collect food from wild animals.

Yeah, but if you are losing them, you still have a problem, which is why I suggest just giving the 200 pop unlock.

UpmostRook9474 · March 16, 2022, 7:29am

Consider a way to use the Genitour in other places rather than just removing them out.
For example, make G a reginal unit for Berbers, Turks, Spanish and Portuguese in the Imperial age.
Then the Berber team bonus may become to improve G and Skirmishers so it does not need a new UT.

Choosing either gold or stone, and let them have all of gold tech or stone tech.
Since Bohemians have one, a new civ can have the another one as the bonus.
The way you suggested breaks the potential to be the bonus for other civs.

The cavalry will be too strong and useful, which means the Burmese should give up the infantry bonus. It is fine since the Burmese is not a classic infantry civ, they don’t need the infantry bonus actually.

Definitely no.
The extra Villagers are the lesson. If the player wanna master the Chinese civ, he/she has to learn it, deal with it, instead of avoiding.

Don’t use area of effect too much in the AoE2.
If you wanna buff Goth hunters, it could give 1 extra boar in the LoS of the first TC, but -150 food when the game starts.

Weird. You can just let Magyar hunters able to carry more food, if you just want a small economy boost.

Please no more aoe.
You can just allow to receive some cost return after melee units dead.

Time-sensitive is a bad design.
You can just make Orthodoxy give the armor to villagers too, and I think this will be better than the “healing armor”.

No. The Eurasian Steppe does not include Anatolia.
The principle must be adhered to, otherwise all civs who have used Lancers, such as Europeans, South Asians and East Asians, will be asked by the community to obtain Lancers one after another.
If you wanna play a Turkic civ with Lancer, there are Cumans and Tatars.

I question whether this really helps Lancers to be used more, when the villagers and siege weapons are as defenseless against knights as hussars.
Maybe you can just give Lancers bonus against infantry.
They will still be weak against archers but able to cover other cavalry.
The Lancers in the AoE3 are also having bonus against infantry. It definitely makes sense.

FranksAreLame · March 16, 2022, 7:30am

I must’ve worded it wrong. I never intended to imply that they lose Stone Mining & Shaft Mining, but that they simply, like you said, no longer get them for free.

TheConqueror753 · March 16, 2022, 7:32am

Like what? It isn’t about having them be less noticeable, it’s about making it more balanced.

How? +1 Pierce armor for stable units in Imp? It’s not super broken, because it isn’t like you really use ranged units against cav at that stage anyway.