Are Bulgarians too weak?

Age of Empires II: DE II - Discussion
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This year we have seen a lot of diverse type of tournaments : 1v1 Random Map, 1v1 Arena, 3v3 TG (BoA), 1v1 and 2v2 empire wars, and currently we’re seeing a 1v1 only arabia. I happen to notice that Bulgarians were never a popular pick in any of those tournaments. Furthermore, in BoA where the draft was 34 civs (30 picks + 4bans) they were usually the civ left. Why is this? Well, I thought about it a I think I have come to a conclusion:

-they have no relevant eco bonus: tc costing less stone is quite irrelevant. You won’t make 3 or 4 extra tcs upon reaching castle age. At the same time, if you make a tower to defend yourself in feudal age, you probably are behind in eco and should go aggressive 1 tc push.

-they military bonus do not have a good synergy: if you’re going against Bulgarians, you should spect m@a, no Brainer. But m@a + scouts is really weird to see… And Bulgarians lacks xbow, therefore no sense in make m@a into archers.

-they rely too much in stone: krepost and stirrups, both need stone. Until stirrups, Bulgarians have neither a relevant military bonus nor an eco one. By that point in the game, any other knight civ would be far better economically than bulgarians (franks, huns, teutons, persians, Lithuanians…), and also will have better army

-their late game is not that impressive to justify being that behind in early/mid game: konnics are good, really good… But not that better than a teuton paladin or a Lithuanian one (and let’s not talk about indians or khmer pocket). There’s no reason at all to pick bulgarians as pocket

So, considering all that, I see them a little behind other civs. What’s your opinion on the matter? I think their military options are not bad, but they could use some eco buff. Maybe free stone mining? That way you could get the stone to get your castle upon reach castle age, or just have more konnics.

What’s your opinion?

20 Likes
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What I ve noticed in them is the lack of a good ranged support because the brute force of their melee units, however is nearly impossible to give them a good eco bonus because that will make the OP with their free militia line upgared and Stirrup cavalry, but what I really dislike now is Bagains, they don’t have champions and the tech is really expensive, still they lose to all other super champion civs (Aztecs, Burmese, Japanese and even Goths and Slavs in some situations), and even the Teutonic Champion do basically all that Bulgarian Two handed can do but much better in every way (their extra melee armor is free).

What I propose is:

  • Siege Technologies cost 50% less (TriRem’s idea and he’s probably the only one that can convince FE to add it), and Bulgarians were fierce at siege: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_Bulgarian_army#Siege_equipment
  • Bagains food cost reduced to 700, and granting some melee armor to the dismounted Konnik.
  • Add Ring Archer Armor upgrade, cmon nobody gonna use Bulgarian archers over their supreme cavalry even with all upgrades and would make their HCAs complete at least, and is historically accurate since Early Proto-Bulgars were from nomadic origin and were famous horse archers
10 Likes
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Give them Blacksmith with -100W, Stoneless TC, 80% faster working Blacksmith and Crossbow upgrade.

Cheaper Siege upgrades would be bad because

  • Bulgarians shine in Imp, it’s their only good age
  • It’s too late and Bulgarians would always die before 50% cheaper Siege Onagers
  • You wouldn’t able to Arb+Ram
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Agreed with all except the crossbow upgrade, Medieval Bulgaria never adopted Crossbows

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Give them the last archer armor upgrade for a start. Stirrups cavalier in exchange for paladin was not a good change for bulgarians, as far as dealing with archers is concerned. They need at least FU skirms.

As a bonus, how about blacksmith techs cost less food? Could be a nice boost, maybe together with a cheaper blacksmith, as @CheshireWig3203 suggested. If you consider that they have no real good eco bonus, I don’t think it would be too much.

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Neither Aztecs, Mayans, Incas

And Bulgarians clearly need Crossbowman upgrade, because of their playstyle.

1 Like
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But the Mesos lack any form of cavalry except maybe by converting stables, all mesos have arbs for balance and literally all were good archers to start with.

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But Bulgarians have nothing to compensate their useless tech tree in Castle Age.

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So free upgrades in feudal age??

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Sorry, meant less food! Otherwise they would be free in feudal age, as you say…perhaps 50% reduced food cost?

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Yes, I have been playing a lot of Bulgarians 1v1 Arabia.

I do have fun Kreppost rushing people.
However the transition in Feudal Age is quite akward.
It is needed to produce some military unit after the MAA to follow up the aggression but none comes naturally. You always have to decide every game which of the 5 Feudal Units you want to produce and none of them are great options…

So:
Dark Age: No Bonus
Feudal Age: Nice MAA, then akward
Castle Age: counterintuitive

You have cheaper TCs but if you want to Kreppost Rush you need all the stone.

If you build Kreppost you would like to build Konniks. But if you build Konniks you need the upgrade for which you need a castle. But then you can’t build Kreppost because you need to save the stone…

4 Likes
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Perhaps could work but I would reserve this one for Turks.

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You’re right, wow bagains is expensive (900/450 compared with 750/250 for the Champion upgrade). I never noticed.
If it was cheaper it would be completely acceptable for the super Camp civs to beat bagains 2-hand-swordsmen. That’s what you get for having free upgrades.
PS: Teutons should lose supplies

2 Likes
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NO… (An Infantry civ losing supplies??)…

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Oh, I have an Idea :smiley:

For Bulgarians: Scouts work like Konniks.
-> when your scout dies the horse dies and a villager stands up.
(Or if that is to broken: a Military unit with the stats of a villager).

16

Just relabel them as a defensive/cavalry civ. That’s how they’re played anyway.
It would help with Teuton Champs overshadowing the UU, as well as with Teuton Champs overshadowing bagains 2-handers.
The Teuton Champs would still be situationally worth it.

1 Like
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Another option could be to make their “bloodlines” tech cost no food (just gold).

Then they could do a delayed (but strong) Scout follow up to the MAA.
They would have a build order that is completely different to all other civs. I like that…

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The do the same with Aztecs, Burmese, Japanese and Vikings and see if it would work…

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Why? It’s not long swords are op, and even with a faster stirrups time, they knights wouldn’t be that much powerful than other knights in castle âge

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Allow castle techs to be researched at the krepost. Still will have to make a castle in imperial age for trebuchets. That way can upgrade konniks in castle age more easily.

Also some other suggestions should be added as well.