Are Burgundians really bad?

After seeing win rates and playing with the Burgundians a few times, I think that Burgundians are quite bad.

Early eco upgrades do not help much at all. Double bit ax is probably the only one worth getting before clicking up. The others you only would get while clicking up, which at most is 130 seconds earlier for Feudal age and 160 for Castle. It does help a little, but most eco bonuses in the game are better.

The Burgundian’s feudal millitary has no bonus. Only Persians, Teutons, Berbers, Khmer, Malay and Tartars have no bonuses helping military in feudal. All of these have arguably better eco bonuses.
Cavalier can not be researched on the way up to castle like bloodlines and is slow to research. They have no other average or above generic units in castle. The UU is OP when Burgundians are ahead but they never are because of the bad early game. Burgundians can’t do much at all vs camels.

Early paladin is nice but the game probably lost the game before Imp. Chemistry takes too long for gunpowder to be useful. Both UTs are super situational.

I just feel that Burgundians are really bad.


But Burgundians were OP at release !!!
But well I agree this civ isn’t impressive

Because they are designed for later stages of the game. To make them even situational viable an age earlier, they need to be 1/3 cheaper AND faster (for TC upgrades).

Burgundians definitely needs something more, not much, but something that gives them a bit of an eco lead.

Maybe a small discount on eco upgrades, maybe a small one or just on some eco upgrades, but something that actually allow them to get those upgrade earlier. Like, I don’t know, a 15/10% discount on them.

It doen’t have to be a discount on eco upgrade of course, but something to give them a bit more eco, it may be something like the ethipoians, or maybe even just a disouted stable, like stables cost just 75w, (maybe even all military buildings) something like that.

Also, the Flemish Revolution UT needs a rework, an idea could be that it only allow each vill to be upgraded into a FM, and then giving it a secondary effect:

  • All xbows trained at that time (or archer if they were never upgraded) are instantly upgrade into HC.

This would resolve the problem of the HC of being too slow to mass, and since burgundians xbows can be decent in caslte age, and then you can suddently get a decent mass of HC in imp, and actually make a good use of their gunpowder bonus.

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Stable Techs Half cost and research time
Recieve Ring Archer armor and Siege Engineers
Can research Bloodlines in Imperial Age

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Yes they are bad. After all FE’s plan is to release civs that don’t impact MP balance too much. But they also want them to have a bunch of gimmicks to distinguish them from other civs. So you end up with “special” civs that aren’t allowed to be tryhard worthy to avoid causing Cuman 2 electric boogaloo. I think keeping those civs for single player or casual games will be more than enough.

If they ever change anything about the civ Memish revolution should be changed first ofc but this makes 0 sense. It has nothing to do with the battle of the golden spurs.

They don’t need either of those.

Sounds stupidly strong.

So your plan is to give them both half cost and half research time paladins and on top of that they can swiftly take bloodlines for like nothing. How about no?


How about elaborating? This civ is useless all stages of the game.

It does have stronger cav in late castle age and in early imperial age. It’s probs the only civ that can go paladins in 1v1 all the time. Even paladin civs like Franks or Lith might give up on the upgrade if the enemy has too much anti-cav on the field. Its eco bonus might be good on Arena. There is maybe even potential for feudal age gillnets on hybrid maps if you feel like experimenting, who knows.

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No economy bonus, no good military bonuses, trash lategame=useless civ


Yeah I didn’t want to give it a hitorical reason… is just something from aoe3 (like the FR that we have now) that could give burgundians a better UT and a better way to use their gunpowder bonus.

Those 2 are too strong. Being able to research cavalier in castle age and having half price paladin upgrade already makes them the faster researching paladins in the game.

The cheaper and early cavalier is also balanced by that minute of stable idle time, if you make it 30s you make that strategy in the same time too strong and too predictable.

BL in imp isn’t necessary if you have all the armor and attack upgrade, burgundians’ paladins will still be one of the strongest unit in the game, and beat franks and teutons if they are able to use their faster teching into paladins.

That’s is why it’s better to give them a small eco boost instead of a late game buff. Also, their trash is fine, half priced hussar isn’t bad at all, they just lack BL, but hussars are still good at late game raiding, and the last archer armor for their skirms, but are enought to kill halbs.

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It is very trash, skirmishers die to arbalest, Hussars without BL are just trash, no SE, no SR, their lategame is just useless. Fast eco tech is just completely useless, it is the best way to lose the game with 35 vill drush FC. Lithuanians can always get 2 relics, have 8:50 uptime, fast trash in the early game, better monks and much better lategame.

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About half of the civs have just only one trash FU, or even less. burgundians aims to kill their enemy with early paladins when there still is gold. Also, while the lack of +1 on siege hurts, burgundians BBC actually deals a lot more damage to buildings than BBC+SE, and while BL is always good on hussars, often is enough to have the last armor upgrade to use them for raiding.

It’s not useless, but yes, as it is designed it’s really weak…


a civ without bloodlines paladins was designed for the later stages of the game? how?


Regardless of what the devs decide with the Burgundians in the future, the UU needs to be changed. The charge mechanic is way too gimmicky and one sided as is.

A player using coustillier does not need any skill to gather a small force that will either 1 hit kill or gravely wound almost all other types of units in the first engagement - only to promptly run way, recharge, and try again.

I do appreciate the effort in trying to create new mechanics that allow for some strategic variety; however, this feels very poorly implemented without any play-testing that would have clearly revealed a problem.

If the Devs are set on keeping this mechanic, here is an idea for a solution. Keep the mechanic as is with this 1 change: If the coustillier attacks a spear unit with charge damage, the charge damage gets reflected back to the coustillier. That way, the opponent has a viable counter to the coustillier, and the player using the coustillier has to rely on good micro to prevent throwing the unit away against spearmen.


Noz the civs, the eco upgrades are designed and balanced for the associated ages, so it makes no sense have them available earlier because they aren’t worth it one age earlier.


Well they have a UT that gives them extra gold, so burgs could try to outgold their rivals and delay trash wars.

They just need a little buff on feudal, maybe a discount on BS cav upgrades or cav armor for free. Or a discount on the eco upgrades


Probs the reason they don’t get supplies.

I think the issue with this is either you can or you cannot counter it. It’s one strategy. Unlike every other civ that has other things going for it. So if you buff it in any way it becomes too oppressive in the cases where a civ struggles to counter it (eg archer civs that struggle v cav civs like viet or korea)

The lack of SE hurts all their non BBC too much. Meaning they lack the counter to a lot of opposing strategies.

Their skirms kill halbs but in turn they are still fragile. And their hussars are fragile. With none of the 3 having any bonus it makes the trash triangle precarious. On top of the lack of supplies. And also leaves them susceptible to trash counters/spamming.

Add both those facts to the lack of the arb or HCA means their tech tree is simply too limited.

BBC comes in too late for a lot of games, allowing opponents to get an upper hand. And their HC is simply too frail (on top of being an inherently bad unit)

For me this is yet another civ that is a perfect example of why the HC needs a buff. The burg tech tree is incredibly reliant on a unit that simply doesn’t work. If they buffed it into viability burg wouldn’t need as much of a military fix. In the same way all the gunpowder civs that all coincidently perform poorly, would also been it from an HC tweak.

And imo the longer the devs leave this, the more of an issue it’ll become if they eventually buff HC…

More about the lack of either SE, SR or SO. Usually one of those 3 is enough. Though, their BBC already deals more damage to buildings, and they have paladins for archers. So maybe either SR or SO are enough.

I think that for now that strategy is fine. The main problem is the lack of any eco advantage, that brings burgundians into a lack of resources when they can get to that earlier cavalier.

Paladins and cavaliers can still be counter by camels and pikes, but archers civs may struggle if they go for just archers, and/or have terrible anti cav solutions (like for example Italians without stone for castles).

They could receive the last archer armor, I think that despite the bonus their HC will still be balanced even if FU, and their skirms would benefit from it. As for hussars, the last armor is more useful than BL, especially when you consider raiding or countering archer. They also save 250f and 300g to tech into hussars, so it’s fine if they lack one tech.

If they get FU skirms and halbs, and hussars that lack just one tech, they will be probably fine.

That why I suggested that FR would transform all xbows into HC. This way you open for the possibility of safely using archers into xbows into HC+hussars, since it allows you to mass the units before imp, and you don’t need to wait for chemistry.

The main problem though is that early game. Getting early eco upgrades is nice, but it may lead to you burning too fast through your stretched resources.

An idea could be that eco upgrades cost a bit less if researched am age early, or a discount of some sort, maybe stables too are 50% cheaper. That way you would save 175w for a double stable scout rush.

Free cav armor is as always an option, even though it may be a bit too strong since you already save a ton on cav upgrades…

Or all upgrades that affects cavalry are 50% discounted, so even forging and the first armor are discounted, if it’s agains too little you can add the 50% discounted stables.

Those are random ideas of course, it’s still too soon to completely figure it out what burgundians needs…

which is my point, certain civs will have inherently tougher matches, while brugundy cannot counter the civs that can defend against almost pure cav, unlike other civs that at least have support options (and usually bonuses for those support options)

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