No, just send 2 Spearmen with your Archers and you kill Turks ez, especially with greater economy bonus
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Then what if he go scout+archer? Shd be better composition then spear archer
You play very agressively against Turks, M@A will trade very well against Scouts, then you drop a second range, get fast Fletching, do damage with like 3 Archers, then go up faster.
If the Turk player wants to counter your M@A opening with Drush or Archer or his M@A, he will be behind, because Turks donât get bonuses for that, neither an economy bonus.
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Turks could lead playing archer with a high gold eco, and buy food up castle, vs small eco bonus civs like spain, byzantines, berbers etc? 20% gold bonus can be exploited by heavy gold armies and buying food!
That seems to be true for most maps. But take a look at the most recent arena tournament LotA. In many series players picked Burgundians among their first picks. Granted, this was before their UU nerf but itâs still a great civ here. While on open maps itâs quite difficult to make their eco bonus worth it, when you can freely boom itâs damn good. You basically get bit axe asap, horse collar before placing your first farms and bow saw on the way to castle.
Well, people who picked Burgundian in this tournament would then proceed to throw HARD. Like so hard itâs not even the civâs fault 11
Burgundian do have a bunch of bonuses that sound good on Arena, but you canât use them all at once. If you try to go greedy boom, you canât take the relics and use your TB. If you go monk rush to take the relics and use your good monks, you probs wonât use the eco upgrades of the next age. Their gunpowder is pretty nice, but not for a fast imp like Iâve seen some people attempt. So Iâm afraid they are just average at best.
What about giving their stable unit +10 HP?
Their scout rush would still be weaker than most civs with an early eco bonus, knights would be more usefull without the slow cavalier upgrade, burg paladin would still be sub par to a FU paladin and hussar would be more usefull un post imp.
The only issue i see is the 130hp cav in castle age, but it aint a Big problem for pikemen
Did they? I donât remember all the games but at least one in which jon slow used the eco bonuses, had a regular castle time adding an immediate monastry, getting light cav and then adding tcs to eventually win the game. I mean the eco advantage you get is having way more wood in early castle so I donât see an isse with getting some monks out while making use of earlier eco upgrades.
Then I missed this one because I distinctly remember two games where the player was just clueless and got completely destroyed 11
Yeah just checked couple of recs and it was against dark noob. Also saw another game where daut stole Burgundians from runnings draft as his first pick and got rekt but he wasnât using the eco bonus at all. I guess thatâs like picking cumans and not building 2nd tc in feudal so not the smartest move. But canât tell from my own experience, didn want to buy the expansion just to check out how one civ performs on one map 11
I think I figured them out guys.
Thereâs good hybrid civ just like Persians. They have good eco - earlier eco ups include gillnets (in Feudal instead of Castle) so u can research them before ponds run out means u have eco bonuses for both land and water.
Otherwise they have military like Persians - cav + skirms in castle and cav + skirms and hc in imp. No bloodlines and last archer armour, but +2 attack knights in castle, faster research for paladins (cause you need only that in imp), cheaper stable researches and more dmg for hc. Good stuff guys, try it out.
If thrh are so good why do winrates and pickrates say otherwise?
Yes they are similar to persians, but they are probably worse as they dont have camels which is a useful counter unit especially in teamgames
Yeah you need to rely on monks there. They have full but theocracy in imp so quite nice.
Theyâre a bit awkward to play imo and theyâre eco bonuses kick after some time. Attacking them early is quite strong since they might have invested a lot of recources in eco upgrades in Dark and Feudal Age and sometimes itâs just hard to weather the storm.
One reason may be flemish revolution⊠few games and ppl want to try that UT and the new UU only to realize its not worth it.
Not saying they are a S tier civ, but I donât trust the stadistics about a weird all in mechanic in a new civ.
Also low pickrate⊠is it much lower than sicilians?because if it is not its just that people didnt care about the dlc
The TL;DR of the eco upgrade available earlier is that they amount to a few hundred resource bonus for each one tops under extremely restrictive assumptions. Under any kind of feudal pressure they are worthless. More detailed analysis:
By buying them earlier you are effectively paying more because earlier resources are worth more (i.e. there is a time preference for resources). The discount factor in games like this is relatively high because of the military aspect. So e.g. if the upgrade costs 150 but you are buying it t minutes earlier and the discount rate is r you are effectively paying 150e^(rt). Alternatively you could say delaying makes it cost 150e^-(rt), i.e. it costs less.
The issue is that resources in this game are gathered by villagers and earlier in the game you have less villagers. So the problem becomes solve for t such that 150(e^(rt)-1) < (present value of bonus resources gathered by getting it earlier). If there exist solutions to this then you can get it earlier. In dark and feudal there is almost no reason to get significant amounts of stone and gold so those are immediately not going to pay themselves back by getting early.
To solve this problem for wood you need to solve an integral. Namely integral(kf(x)/e^rx, dx, t_0, t) where t_0 is 25 seconds (the duration of the research), f(x) is the number of villagers on wood as a function of time and k is the amount of extra wood per villager on wood. This gives you the value of researching the tech t minutes earlier. This is a solvable integral for adding villagers in a linear manner (e.g. 1 every 50 seconds). Then you subtract the added cost from getting the upgrade earlier.
Anyway when you do that you get a graph like Graphing Calculator .
playing around with the discount rate per minute ( r ), initial villagers on resources (v_0), and the rate at which you add villagers (m) and recognizing you can only get the upgrades 5-10m sooner tops you realize that the MAXIMUM POSSIBLE VALUE is on the order of 100-200 resources per wood upgrade. And this assumes a relatively low discount factor. If youâre at risk of getting feudal rushed your discount factor is gonna be high, which makes these worthless.
With farms itâs even worse because the present value of the saved wood is on the order of 10 wood per farm tops. So thereâs almost no way youâd have enough villagers, let alone farms to justify getting them an age early.
So yeah TL;DR Burgundian eco-bonus devolves to a maximum (in almost ideal scenarios) of a few hundred resources per wood upgrade. Devs are going to need to change it to something like all eco bonuses -X% cost or something.
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Thatâs good points mate. If you consider early game when your opponent doesnât put pressaure at you then all you need to spend your resources on is vills, eco upgrades, buildings and age up. The thing is that you need only eco upgrades (and preferably military buildings) when going up so if you do upgrades in this case youâre always ahead.
On the other hand greedy eco upgrades might pay-off very quickly before the inflation kicks is. Inflation is worse in castle age and onward since everyone can boom with more tcs, at least on maps without too many fishing spots.