After testing this out in the editor you might be right. They are not too strong (spearmen survive with 10 instead of 20 HP vs scouts) but the real power spike here is that you wouldn’t need to mine gold for the upgrade. Yes spearmen still trade pretty fine with them but once blacksmith upgrades kick in Light Cav can be quite oppressive (FU spearmen now only survive with 5 HP instead of 25).
I really wanted them to have a cool bonus in Feudal Age. I guess the more logical and conservative approach would be to make their eco techs more affordable so you can actually use the bonus. That’s not flashy however and makes them basically just another eco + knight civ 
although i like the idea, the compensation required (loss of BF) forces them into an even more mono build civ … with weaker champs, halbs, and militia, on top of their already limited tech tree… is there not a better way?
for one if they lose blast furnace imo they must get supplies
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Yeah I agree… It’s tricky because right know it feel like giving them BL is a good option
which emphasis well with the stable techs discount, but they can’t have FU Paladins because of that same 50% bonus. Just like they can’t combine BL + Castle Age Cavaliers.
The main balance focus should be for their feudal fights, maybe there is better ways to enhance them that being said.
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I don’t think that they need to change their stable dynamic. Their paladins may lack BL, but they are still way better than byzantine and celts ones, and they are the most likely to be used in 1v1 than any other civ, so it’s likely that 160 HP paladin can easily beat any other 140 HP cavalier.
As for their hussars, they are still perfectly fine, since usually armor is way better than HP when used against archers and defensive buildings, and having blast furnace makes them perfectly suited for raiding.
Lastly, the cavalier in castle age are half the price is a really good bonus, and if offer them a power spike.
Their problem isn’t their stables, but their eco, the early eco bonus is good, but being the only eco bonus, isn’t enough, and it’s also difficult to afford them that early on.
To compensate that, they need some sort of Eco buff, I would suggest something like:
-
Stables cost just 75 wood:
This would help you early on, when going for scouts, to better afford those early eco upgrades. In castle age, it would help you by allowing to easily build a stable just for researching cavalier (since it takes so much) allowing you avoid stopping knights production. -
Eco upgrades cost 50% less the food cost:
It’s not that original I know, but it would do the trick. It would allow you to get those early eco upgrades and it would help you with vills and scouts production. Just with double bit axe you would save enough food for a vill. -
Make the farms generate gold as a standard bonus from the dark age.
It may seem OP, but in reality it’s like having half of a relic by mid feudal age. It would help with M@A into archers rush, or for stockpiling gold for knights.
I agree with this, but I would add a second effect:
- All xbows are transformed into HC.
The biggest problem of HC is that it’s difficult to mass them, since you have to wait for imp and chemistry, when it’s more easy to mass units since feudal or castle. This would solve this problem.
still one of my favourite ideas, but would need an early buff to go with it, like the cheaper stables
the cheaper stable seems to help here, as well as in castle… the wood saving in feudal is always a boost, and potentially makes getting scrush out smoother
and even if its 100w per stable, you can easily get 3(when you would normally get 2), and thereby not slow down the kt production (which is the biggest issue with the slow cav tech as it nukes your kt production, so the power spike is almost levelled out)
i think this is very strong though, and if it is picked, doesnt leave much room for any other changes (like widening the tech tree or adjusting the UT) i could be wrong but the food savings on top of the early tech could be really strong… i mean already by mid feudal thats 173 food off wheel barrow, double bit and collar, nevermind the other stuff
this might also work well… this might lend itself more towards closed maps though? like most res trickle sources
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Or you can go just with 2 (which is common for scout rush), and using that 200w saved to get either more farms, or early eco upgrades.
In castle age, you can always add the third stable (or the fourth) and build one just to research cavalier upgrade and husbandry, so to avoid idling even part of your production.
Yeah that may be really strong, and it may require a nerf somewhere else.
I think that in general it would make them more solid, even simply more gold here and there may lead to more market abuse. It would help for all maps, open or closed. In the end is gold for something that you would do anyway.
Maybe the best combo would be the first one along the third one.
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yeah for sure, i meant the 3 in castle age, and yeah you could get a 4th for a all in kt push or whatever its called, i just call it all in when my opponent spams stables, and im like whatevs, ill just hidey hole in my base and convert your fat horses while i boom… 
yeah i reckon that maybe that could work, cheaper stables having a bigger impact for the more open maps, and trickle for the longer games, and to fill in when you just need a wee bit more gold for that upgrade or extra unit. and would certainly even further boggle the minds of the build order planners… “so when exactly should i start placing farms”
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man i think this is a brilliant idea!
light cav is okay vs spears and great vs archers!
thats no brainer Burgandian paladin in teamgame, due to extra HP and armor.
Celts Paladin vs Lit +2/+3 relics cavalier is a more debatable one, likely lit better without the need of paladin upgrade.
Hey guys. What if you compare it to Persians?
Burgundians have nice eco due to earlier eco bonuses (farm + wood upgrades help kick a lot of farms in feudal very much) - Persians have strong eco on land maps too due to faster working tcs and resources boost at start.
Both have great knights in castle - more dmg vs archers or +2 attack (cavalier = knight with bloodlines and +2 attack which is comparable to average Lithuanian knight).
Both have HC + cavalry comp for the late game to counter halbs as a possible answer to knights.
Also Burgundians have good raiding potential with cheaper techs for scout line, great unique unit and ofc knights.
I don’t think they’re bad at all.
I havent seen burgundians yet in tournaments or I just missed the action?
They’re trash, so pros avoid to pick them.
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Then so are Goths, Teutons, Turks, Saracens, Byzantines, Burmese and Malay because pros very rarely pick them, right?
Malay, Saracens, Teutons and Byzantines are being picked a lot in HC4 qualifiers, Turks, Goths and Burmese are trash, but I think they are still better than Burgundians.
That’s so bad when even Burmese are being picked instead of Burgundians.
Dont get why burmese is picked so few. Is it coz of without 2nd archer armor?
Yes, the reason Burmese is picked less is the lack of archer armor, but I’d choose Burmese over Burgundians any day.
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Just IMO burmese isnt that bad afterall. Sure arambai is hard to get to 1v1, but they have free wood upgrade which is at least mid tier eco bonus if not top
Burmese would be a good civ with the second archer armor, I’d love to see that.
So with that in mind, turks are still one of the worst 1v1? Boosted scout shouldnt outweigh the absence of pikeman and e skirm?