I was wondering why I never see the mantlet unit or the log carrying ram unit in any tournament games? Is there any situation where they are viable? Why aren’t they viable? Are they cost effective vs skimishers? It seems like they should be.
The answer is too slow, too expensive and too inefficient.
they only have 3.5 speed so making them from the base is not that good. they are also not easy to mass, costing 200 resources each and also costing a decent chunk of wood(also cost 2 pop). You only get shipment of them in age 3 by which time cannons just ■■■■ on them
Haud also doesnt lack siege since tomahawk has pretty decent siege and they can mass them easily. as for countering skrims, haud also has the best skirm in the game so they don’t need manlets to counter thenm
as for how to fix them idk but there is a viable manlet unit and its the native one, since it doesn’t have the same issues as the normal manlet ( it doesn’t cost pop and has a decent shipment in age 2). The 6 huron ally card is used in some decks since it can provide large amounts of siege pressure forward
As a main haud, I can say that mantlets are undervalued. Apart from having a siege, they have 2 more very important purposes, the first is to make a body block and the second and very important, to tank damage.
They have 50% resistance against distance, and have double label of infantry and siege weapon, this means that it is the unit that can receive more metropolis improvements of the whole game, and if my calculations do not fail, adding 10% of HP provided by the WC, the mantlet in its maximum expression gets + 80% HP and + 70% attack without counting the improvements that can be developed in the siege workshop. To this we must add that the BB from the siege workshop gives them almost 4 speed.
Now, to answer your question, why is it not used?
Well, this is because people prefer to go the classic forrest prowler + musket rider combo, which is very mobile, but I must admit that sending as 2 elderly send 5 mantlets is very useful against civilizations that mass many units at distances , is the iroques equivalent of the 2 European falconets.
And well, the RAM, what to say about this unit, for me it should be available from the second age, I mean, it is a RAM, it is not a falconete 21, nobody uses it, because if someone wants to have siege and tank, use directly the mantlet.
If people knew the potential of the mantlet, I think it would be widely used in treaties, the only thing is, it consumes a lot of wood to mass produce them, and the haudenosaunee does not have a renewable source of it.
Mantlets are good offensively in a sort of all-in scenario, especially on maps where you get hurrons as well.
Defensively they are very good at tanking damage.
In late game, once you setup some proxies with the building carts from the CP, you can just spam them in your enemies face with fertility dance, they are very annoying to deal with, and forces a cavalry switch, which is easily countered by tomas.
Are they bad? no.
They are niche, they have some very good situations in which they are very good.
I think they are top tier in lategame, because they only cost 1 pop but have stats of a 2 population unit. the only downside is its wood cost, but there is almost no pop adjusted matchup they trade bad in
They are very good for scaring the ■■■■ out of turtling enemies in late game.
the 5 mantlet shipment in age 3 is a good way to win a skirm war. excellent counter to china shipping iron troops or germany shipping jaegers. but i wouldnt recommend training them. if you really need siege as haud, its pretty much always better to go age 4 for the best cannon in the game
Yes. RAM and Mantlets are literally short ranged siege units who are not worth their usage.
By the time they get to a wall or building you’d already have a bunch of faster and more versatile units that had been sieging the enemy. Plus,they are bad vs melee units and can’t do anything vs ranged enemies so…yeah. Quite limited units for your army.
If they had also a small melee armor and/or were a bit faster than gunpowder siege weapons I could see myself using them.
they cost a ton of wood in a civ that has lots of wood costing units, and they move slow.
solve these two issues and they be good.
say 200 food 40 gold, 4 move speed, add a .5x malus vs heavy cavalry. boom fantastic unit. still gets crushed by falconets and heavy cavalry.
There was one pro game don’t ask me to find it where the Haudenosaunee player uses the Huron Mantlets in age 2 and things go okay at first when the opponent isn’t expecting it and doesn’t have many units but then their lack of speed becomes really apparent.
Eventually there is an engagement where the Haudenosaunee player has to retreat from shipment reinforcements but where a normal retreat would be fine in this scenario, the whole army ends up getting slowed by the mantlets as to not lose them for nothing. They take much heavier losses and worse trades then they otherwise would.
In conclusion, they are at best a win more. If you are ahead and can stay ahead they can seal the deal nicely. If things are even though their weaknesses are a massive liability.
Things aren’t much better late game either. They get annihilated by artillery and speed matters much more in the late game and per cost their damage and range is pretty poor even with upgrades so they can be ignored unless they are right on the front door step and even then light cannon are a much safer more versatile option for siege.
I am just saying they are a very underrated unit in lategame. There is a good endless card to utilize them. You can see them used here, they are good for taking down factories and also generally at trading, since they do decent vs anything.
They are being used at around 50 minutes until the end of the game (also a bit earlier).