Well, Inca has kancha houses and Aztec has priests (a strange kind of eco), but Haud and Lakota eco is insanely wrecked in current patch. They used to be civs with poor eco and strong units, but after many new civs and features added into this game, their poor eco is nearly unbearable now, especially for Haud: their early water boom is nerfed now, and their units are not that strong.
This makes it very boring to play these civs: with such an eco you can hardly do anything interesting, you have to play more and more aggressively, trying to make your opponent eco as bad as yours. “Agrarian ways” is the only way to “boom” for Haud, but it costs two travois and takes long time to research techs. It’s necessary to make this shipment arrive fast, or to let those techs in farms researched instantly. Adding a 8 villagers shipment may help a bit too.
This forum full of bias on native civs, if you are saying they are weak, people will just come to argue with you, native are strong their eco are strong with infinite crates card, Although they pay 50w more for same gold mining tech in the market, and this extra 50w cost can make Haud and Lakota stronger than normal civs, their units state are much lower than general under same cost but they are still strong.
Because native civs are weak now also seldom people want to pick them, with lowest pickrate and almost lowest winrate (even in 1v1, Team game is disaster to them), dev is still nerfing them due to remaining people are still crying for native civs bonus those above average. They need native civs too have all handicap specific stuff and will continuously crying they are strong without any reason.
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Lakota are very strong now especially now that light infantry are worse vs cavalry. Hauds eco is not great but they have strong units that all get buffed by the warchief aura, warchief can crackshot units and they get a free travois upon aging which allows you to pressure very early from a forward war hut and using the tomahawk big button + shipments. Even later they have excellent dragoons and skirms and the best artillery in the game. It’s strong military makes up for its weaker eco.
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Yes, native or non-European civs are generally quite weak, both due to nerfs and historical balance…
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@MatM1996 British and Sweden are no longer S tier, Ottomans could be considered non-Europeans, Malta wasn’t that powerful, Italy wasn’t even Italy…
What are you talking about?
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Lakota can be an except one, but they are received ridiculous nerf in previous patch such as 5 clubman, did they think 6 clubman is stronger than 6 musket or 8 pikes?
others you are just talking everything Haud are different from general then identify they are strong.
My post for Haud status you have replied, see the comparison for Haud and general units again, Toma and Kanya especially Kanya are both age 2 main units but trash even with WC aura compared to general units. This is a handicap to Haud, not bonus as Kevin said.
With you also can see someone who just want to remove this civs from the game, can slander Haud have strong eco from sending infinite resource crate, that a normal player would know this is just waste shipment most of the time.
What Haud can do is only early warhut in front but totally trash in other aspect including army and eco. Do people think many situations this is useless? they don’t know just want them to get nerf.
Moreover their musket rider (goon) is an obvious VICTIM of native civs because they are better than general goon, which is NOT ALLOWED by most of people have bias on native, that makes they received nerf.
Now the aztec successfully take this bias role because their remain good unit ERK also gets nerfed finally.
So this is not poor for natives?
The previous lakota nerfs were stupid I agree that’s why they reverted them. The kanya is pretty much the same as a hussar but slightly less hp in exchange for more ranged resist and kanya get 1.75x vs artillery I think they’re fine same as the musket rider. The infinte crates and fur trade is more of a treaty thing.
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I’ve heard that many people complain that European civs are improved to the detriment of non-European ones…
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Maybe because KoTM is European focused and we have not received only one major content update since then, and that one feels more like a follow-up of KoTM.
Before that all native American civs got one round of update. But now they are again “outdated”.
I am also waiting for some enrichments on some other civs like Asians and British (the first European civ to get a rework which is a very boring one).
I don’t think Sioux or Iroquois are particularly broken through most of the game. Their highly simplified economies offset their lack of certain things that European and Asian civs get going through the first 4 ages. Where they struggle is in the end-game where they lack the punch militarily to compete against some of the newly revamped civs and where they can’t use swarming/zerg style approach because their late game economies are so terrible.
If any change is needed, it would be something Age 5 or treaty-mode specific. I think the healers working in the fire pit was supposed to be part of that and it does help for all of the Native American civs, but while Aztec and Inca do ok in the late game, I still find that Lakota gets fairly easily outclassed on the battlefield and crumbles like paper if you can get into their town, and Haud has its own issues if you can deny them access to wood. Even with Environmentalism, they have to put their villagers at risk to get it and if they have allies, the allies chop up all of the safe, close wood compounding the problem. India has this issue as well if it goes heavy on elephants.
If there were civs that could use The Great Northern Forest analogues, it would be Iroquois and India (I’d give them infinite groves with a food cost or something rather than the 1300w HC shipment).
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The native civs in general feel like they are missing lots of features compared to everybody else, maybe the intended idea is for them to be simpler design-wise, but in practice it mostly feels like #### ### ########### when comfronted with everybody else.
Doesn’t help either that, to obtain their unique resource, they must take vills off the normal eco, unlike literally everybody else.
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Native civs thrive with aggresive eco, not passive, which is harder to pull off but far more effective. After all, the euro super age4 means little if their forced to mill 10 minutes in. Also they require tighter micro, understanding of maps (when to stagecoach, water, etc) and much more active scouting since they cant make as much bad trades. By design they are a bit more risk/reward.
Haude with BB fast age2 and warhut forward, or FF into some if not the most cost effective early units, uses mass and great shipments and warchief to contain opponents, or in the case of FF simply brute their way through opponent’s. Eco means less when your army can cover. Haude also very strong water and even livestock in 1v1s. The civ late game has the plaza and inf1500 res to compensate, plus as others noted great scaling units.
Lakota also prefer to contain- fast age2 constantly raiding and pulling opponents army all ways, keeping them on back foot while lakota drains the map of hunts. Can ff semi ff as well to get super strong units and prevent opponent from ever being able to boom. Food slanted fast cav civ that can bully most opponents (is weak vs turtles like italy ports tho) from min 430 onto 20 min, when hunts start to dry up. Even then they can send some hunts forever and have a few cards plus plaza to spawn, allowing their cav to be cost effective all game.
The thing here is clearly, how does one balance their powerspike early game and strong units without keeping farm/estate eco late game mid tier. Tbh i dont think you can, theres no way to make the civ strong forever thats fair. In treaty and teams these civs are considered mid tier, haude a bit lower, but balanced as is: they tech into a unit and have some options but have to be careful. Thats the fun of the civ anyways, more aggresion and micro, better macro needed, that rewards the player who learns this. Making their late eco strong would either be OP or force a reduction of existing mechanics that others have enjoyed for almost 10 years.
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La gente se queja a veces de nerfs que reciben civs no-europeas y critican buffs y reworks en civs europeas. Todas las civs tienen nerfs/buffs/reworks, y el meta nunca ha indicado que sea proeuropeo.
Yo mejoraria, uniría o desecharia cartas inutiles de tidas las civs, y no hablo de hacer todo absolutamente viable.
Lo que mas hecho en falta en civs nativas es un strat viable de forajidos con Lakota, y algunas cards nuevas para Haud, que tiene muy poca diversidad en el mazo.
如果你剛好是說中文，你會發現還有gtw在盯你的發言。一旦說中國文明需要什麼樣的更新，呵呵，馬上就有慕洋犬來咬你。
Has anyone tried the Aztecs after the patch? How are you doing with the new changes? I would have tried it myself but I didn’t have time this week and this weekend I want to try other civilizations.
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If you have try to play Haud once in team game, you will understand my point.
Especially Otto are strong in current patch, they can have almost same time as Haud age up, with 2 barracks training Jan while Jan still get buff in last patch, can train abus that one of strongest unit in age 2. Not even mention Otto can FF within 6 mins for Spahi or 2 falcs.
Due to map size in team game, Haud early aggressive pressure are much less when their travios need to walk a far distance to frontline, while opponent would prepare defense already most of the time, but Haud eco is too weak and units are bad, they will be fighting with less units but against stronger units.
If you don’t trust how weak kanya is, I still suggest you can try once team game and your opponent is also training cav.
You can fast age though so you should be able to compete with otto fairly well.
In a 3v3 map.
Both front base in the middle map.
Haud:
Otto:
First batch around 4:40. No food treasures get, can be faster with food treasure.
I can’t see how Haud is strong compared to Otto.
Try 10 toma + WC aura vs 10 Jan? Don’t forget Otto have 2 barracks but Haud only has one, it is sure Otto will win after that under same skill.
Im trying to say this nicely, but your macro is off. A 310 age btw is sort of fast so should have timed to have 4 kanya(or 6 tomos but usually safer kanya to harrass vills and force idling) by 345 out and in opponents base by 4, with big button pressed and 2nd age2 shipment queued. Assuming a 0 treasure 15 vill fast age up you should be age2 by 330, warhut down in time for kanya to pop from them, and queuing batches of tomos. The fact youre up at 310 with 0 units for 1.5 minutes almost speaks to a macro issue, even on larger maps can still time kanya or tomo shipment with forward warhut at 430. In transistion you should have gathered enough for 1 LH and 1 vill+BB all without idling then swap back for tomo production.
Also for the record, vs otto in teams someone should be handling cav to deal with abus and in 1v1 i prefer to semi or ff cause abus are a problem (jans actually do shit damage and a kanya raid on eco can cripple ottos slow vill production) and FPs/MR/cuir manhandle most otto age3 comps.
I have a req of decent team elo(1400+ all parties) where as haude i take water and spam tomos till a LC switch and outgather everyone by a heaby margin, not a gadt age up tho ### ##### tomos scaling and going toe to toe with most things all game. Again, most musks dont have 2x inf cards (plus sometimes old ways) age2 plus 10%hp aura crackshotting meat shield. Or start water (this is huge as natives rely on early control of water to overwhelm). And those 11 tomos 4 kanya can gorce turtling or give up map control. A scaling up to range12 to 14 30/40% or 40/50% musk that doesnt care about coin mines is pretty damn good, the fact you didnt make units for 1.5 min i think is more telling than saying haude “cant” keep pace with jans(also scout, make aenna if needed). Hope you find some help there 
I haven’t read the whole thread but comparing otto (S tier in team) with haud (F tier in team) makes no sense haha
Haud is just bad, very bad in team and I always try to play them in team but it sucks xD
Also in 1v1 you never fast age against otto as haud lol, its suicide, anyway the mu is bad
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