I’m still of the opinion that each Native civ should have access to their own specific captured artillery piece.
The Haudenosaunee should have two artillery by default - their Light Cannon and the Captured Mortar, then have the ability to bring in, say, falconets or something.
The Lakota should have access to Captured Horse Guns via BBT that enables them in the Corral.
The Aztecs should have access to Spanish Captured Culverin, as it would be the most useful unit to them. Maybe the Captured Mortar if necessary.
As Hoop mentioned, though, the Incans would be simplest to just have the Thunderbolts of Illapa just enable them rather than sending a handful.
Makes the most sense since it ties nicely into the mobility of the civilisation.
It could be somewhat worse then the original Horse Artillery.
I still think it’s stupid that Horse Artillery is stronger then Falconets. It should be a trade off between speed and power not just more speed and power (for a higher cost and population).
Im sure giving the civ that buffs speeds and has the best cav, notably the best cav archer, a fast artillery that counters everything the bow rider does not, will usher in some of the best most engaging gamrplay since the 4 min haude rush. Sarcasm aside, do you really see how giving them horse art would be insufferable? They have anti artillery on every single cav option, the only way to beat lakota then would be the most toxic of walling.
Judging by the recent spat of “natives civs, who wreck house early game and in pitched battles should also get cannons casue to hell with balance” im guessing we got alot of people who arent using an aggresive civ aggressively or are in modes where you cant be aggresive like nr20-40 or some sort of team game where they have no allies with culvs. Cause in supremecy, inca are the only native thay struggle with late game artillery (and only heavies, chimu do slip into falc and huaraca do ok into musk falc) . Cannons dont damage cav heavy lakota, haude age3 is already strong and LC finish most turtles easily, and AK/ERK remains deadly into anything, assuming you understand you have to kite. All these civs have solid early aggresion to leverage as well. All have mortars to force fights in open as well
Topic was about eco of native civs anyways, which i think died since other than team haude everyone else has solid economic ability and that skill is required to play these civs, a bit more investment and cant play them like euro. After all if you want musk/cannon, we have about 16 civs for that.
At mid to high level all the native civs have solid niches and are fun if a bit specialized, the specialization is what makes it fun, but i guess its human to only want your wants to win easier over adapting to a civ. Why cannons or turbo eco on aggro civs seems like a bad idea tho imho
Ideally, the Lakota shouldn’t have artillery at all. Realistically, lugging around giant fuckin artillery pieces on the prairie was a death wish because you’d never be able to keep up with the bison.
But Forgotten Empires decided somewhere along the way that the Lakota had to have artillery, despite existing just fine for over a decade without prior to the DE.
I’d rather see the Lakota rebalanced with no access to artillery, with the only exception being if they get access to a Saloon building at some point and get, like, Lil’ Bombards.
Dislike, bow riders it would be too oppressive again, it’s too hard to defend the vills in age II. on the other hand, improving the LOS of the heavy cav (cac) makes it easier to raid, and the defender has options.
I would also like them to give viability to an outlaws strat.
I think Lakota is not only the cavalry-focused native civ, it’s also the outlaw-focused native civ (because of their shipments and 200 free pop), but they can’t use them competitively.
It would bring more versatility, originality and we would have a more complete and striking set of cards.
I honestly hate the wholly made up “Captured Mortar”. If they’re going to force something completely fictional into the game at least make it based on native technology. I suggested an option based on the connection between warfare and Lacrosse:
I don’t want to revive that dead post, but I will back this up - Chanskopa was a sport that spread across the entire continent. We used similar tactics to use fire to herd bison around the prairie with flaming balls of dung thrown from chanskopa sticks, iirc.
“Chanskopa” is the Lakota word for Lacrosse. Using this instead of the completely ahistorical “captured mortar” would be a much cooler and more thematic method of giving the Lakota + Hauds siege units.
This backs up my argument that the Lakota + Hauds should be their own region, separate from the Aztecs + Incans. This is a shared unit that both civs could use that would have no place in the two southern civs.
The Lakota, rather than the light cannon, could alter the Marauders card to give Tashunke Prowlers the ability to use this siege attack from horseback, giving them an interesting niche as a cavalry siege-trooper.
I don’t want to bump my own post, but what you mentioned here is very relevant to the idea so I linked it. And nothing has really changed in the game to make that post obsolete.
This point especially gives a lot of credence to the concept. The fact that something similar to a lacrosse stick was used to launch flaming balls means it’s confirmed to some degree instead of just being a plausible inference.
I went with “Tewaaraton Runner” mainly because it can be translated to “little brother of war”, and from what I can tell, the sport seems to have the strongest roots in the Northeastern Woodlands.
I’m not sure how I feel about this. Tashunke Prolwers are already very strong so it probably wouldn’t be balanced to give them this ability. Even with some major rebalancing, a heavy cavalry that acts as a culv-mortar seems to defy every intuition in the game.
Maybe instead the Charging Ceremony could be renamed to Chanskopa Ceremony and spawn Tewaaraton Runners. Or just have them trainable from the War Hut.
Tewaaraton is a Mohawk word. It might be a little weird, but having the same unit in two different civs with two different names might be the best bet here - but simply the Chanskopa Runner for the Lakota would be fine.
I like the idea. They don’t need to be good against infantry - Mortars were chosen to avoid giving the Lakota more anti-infantry units; As it stands, I believe the Lakota have more anti-infantry units than any other civ in the game (without counting artillery), so an actual cannon unit would have ruined their balance.
I know you’d want the most authentic name, but the same unit with two names is unnecessarily confusing and has no precedent. The only exception is how names change with royal guard upgrades, so maybe an approach like that could change it from a generic/Mohawk name to a Lakota one. I didn’t come across any good sounding generic names, so I went with the Mohawk one.
There are a lot of reasons to pick Tewaaraton as the default name. It translates to “little brother of war” so it helps reinforce the connection between lacrosse and this military use. It’s also just way more recognizable. There are lacrosse awards with this name, and a very strong tradition of the sport among the Haudenosaunee continuing to this day.
On the other hand, the only result when you look up “Chanskopa” is this discussion we’re having. If you’ve got any sources on Lakota lacrosse or the hunting methods of throwing flaming balls of dung I’d love to see/hear them. If no written sources exist, it would be good to get something out there. The devs can’t be expected to make a historical unit without having any knowledge of the history.