Are the samurai and the Japanese champion too similar? Ideas to help differentiate them:

So the stats of the 2 FU units are:


Atk: 12+4 RoF: 1.42
HP: 80 armor: 4/5
Speed: 1.1
Cost: 60f 30g TT: 6s from castles
+10 bonus damage vs UU
+2 vs EEW, +4 vs buildings

Japanese Champion:

Atk: 13+4 RoF: 1.5
HP: 70 armor: 4/5
Speed: 0.99
Cost: 45f 20g TT: 15s from barracks
+8 vs EEW, +6 vs buildings

Usually the argument is that after supplies, there really isn’t a reason to train samurais, since the damage output is similar, but the champion cost less and it’s easier to train.

Is it that true in your opinion? If not, what changes can benefit the samurai?

Common line of infantry vs Unique Infantry unit.

Japanese Champions are really underrated, 15 of them can take down a TC much fatser than even knights, not to mention that they destroy all other champions.

Samurai attack faster and has bonus vs UUs.
They are fine but probably a gold cost reduction could be fine.

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Japanese Champs are really good. Another quick difference:
Elite Samurai costs 950f and 875g
To get to champs it costs: 1350f and 555g

Ultimately the gold savings of the champs themselves, and the gold savings on their upgrades (in addition to being trained from barracks) makes champs the obvious choice.

So maybe make samurai cost 60f 20g (10g cheaper), and reduce the gold cost of the elite research to 650g (225g cheaper).

With this change I’d see the main benefit for samurai being a) fighting UUs b) fast tech switch into melee in imp to clean enemy trash.

The samurai attached 0.08 faster, which isn’t that much, while also have 1 less attack, so as damage output, Tha champs seems better.

Vs UU for sure the samurai is better, but that is a really rare context, and also avoidable by the enemy.

That’s true.

Mmm I’m not sure that this would be enough for incourage the use of the samurai.

Vs Infantry UUs. Maybe. Japanese have very strong archers and also HCs.

Vs cavalry UUs, halabs are better.

Vs archer UUs… well in general samurais are not a great choice.

So samurais are ine of the worst UUs imo. Japanese have good options to compensate btw

But one of the coolest looking! Lol. I think a slight gold reduction for Samurai wouldn’t add a ton to the Japanese civ play style/winrates etc. But it might make them more common to see if that matters. It also would make it smooth to do archer play in castle and then transition into ES/Arbs/Halbs in imp, though maybe that would be to powerful?

How the samurai contribute to the arbs+halbs combo? Those 2 units already cover each other weaknesses.

Samurai aren’t a bad unit at all, it’s just that japs have better options overall.

I think that if we lower the cost of the samurai, we return to the pre-DE situation, when there were no reason to use champions.

So instead of reducing the cost, I would buff some of its stats, so the champs become the cheapest and cost-effective unit, while the samurai the unit with more raw power, or that is more flexible.

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Skirms counter both halbs and arbs.

I dont neccesarily disagree with buffing Samurai, but improving their stats gives japanese a new stronger option which I’m not sure they need balance wise.

If you just make the elite tech and unit itself a bit cheaper you end up with the unit still being situational, but also be worth using in replace of champs if you already have enough castles around. My suggestion wouldn’t supersede champions. If you used the sword line in castle and grabbed those upgrades, or you don’t have a lot of stone, Champion would still be the play.

My suggestion is for if you go x-bows in castle and maybe have 2 or 3 castles in imp, and then you need to tech into a champion type unit, samurai would be a strong viable option, but still situational.

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-10G, -5F + 0.05 speed

Yes, but if the combo can cut through the enemy meatshield, even skirms can’t do much.
And onestly, Onagers with SE is a better choice over samurai FOR skirms.

I agree that japs are balanced, but they aren’t either mid tier, so maybe buffing a bit their UU wouldn’t make them OP.

Yes, but then most of the time champ would still do the samurai job.
I would like that samurai would have some situations where they clearly are the best choice, independently by the stone that you may have in the map.

Buffing the speed isn’t a bad idea, since it’s the champion Achilles heel, +0.05 would bring them on the level of huskarls and berserkers, but in my opinion we could buff them even to 1.2 (+0.09).

I would say that Samurais may become a champions replacement:

Make the new Samurai as

Atk: 13+4 RoF: 1.5
HP: 70 armor: 4/5
Speed: 1.1
Cost: 45f 20g, f cost is 60 before supplies
TT: 15s from barrack, 6 from Castle (read below)
+8 vs EEW, +6 vs buildings, +10 bonus damage vs UU

Basically a slightly better champion (10% faster) unless vs UU. The similar thing can be done for non-elite samurais with respect to longsword.

Then give Japanese the following bonus: maa is upgraded in samurais instead of longsword. Tbd if the upgrade is from Castle or barracks

So basically Japanese loose access to longsword and the following units (2hs, champion). They have just samurais both in castle and barrack which are a slightly faster champion unless vs UU.

If this is too op just remove supplies

So just embrace the fact that at this point japanese champs and samurai are the same and essentially reskin champions to look like samurai with a couple buffs?

It’s an interesting idea, in a sense though we leave japanese with no UU at all, which I guess one could argue is the current state of things. :thinking:

(Edited due to misclick)

Basically yes. A champion reskin plus the bonus vs UU and 10% faster.

Now it is very close.

But it is just a proposal… I do not know if it works

Somehow they UU would be a total forced replacement of the infantry line…

Sure you’d still technically have the samurai as a UU, but in reality what we have is just a buffed Champion. It would be cool, and maybe not OP, but in a sense it would then feel like they don’t have a castle unit with a unique identity.

Since we’re just spitballing… what if from the castle we got a mounted samurai unit that still does the bonus damage against UU. And has similar stats. We could then fight mounted and ranged UUs more effectively. :man_shrugging: idk, might be cool.

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Their bonus vs UU is useless against most civs…

Against UU cavalry = Japanese halbs are WAY better option. (Maybe only decent against Bulgarians)
Against UU ranged units = Samurai don’t have enough movement speed or pierce armor for that. So not cost effective at all, or they will even lose the fight on most cases.
Against UU infantry = Very good, but on half the cases their Champions would also do a decent job.

A -5 gold cost buff would make them more interesting. And maybe move at the same speed as Berserks and Huskarls (+0.05 speed).


I would prefer for them to have, both the champion and the samurai, so finding a way to buff the second is better in my opinion.

This could be followed even by a proportionally increase of its cost.

Some examples are, more speed, more MA, more attack speed.

Something that simply make it stronger.

I think as long as the UU is an infantry unit, it will still be unused no matter what we do to its stats/cost.
Japanese already have arguably the best infantry in the game. Stone is needed to build the best towers in the game (Yasama). So why would I build 3-4 castles to pump Samurai when Champs are amazing, easy to mass, and the towers are amazing and needed offensively and defensively.

Seriously, -5 gold or even -20 food won’t change that. The UU needs to be converted to a light cavalry, while keeping the bonus against other UUs. Japanese don’t have decent cavalry (though cavalry archers are FU) and a light cavalry option from castles might be usable, but I still doubt it, and it will make the civ fully teched like Spanish and Saracens.

If you’d be ok with completely reworking samurai…
you could make it a cavalry archer that spawns a katana-wielder on death. But pretty much every aspect of the samurai would have to be reconfigured.


What if it would remain a infantry, but with the speed of a EEW, without his PA of course.

Would it be to similar to a Woad at that point?