I think what he means is getting factions like italians burgundy and bohemia kind of broke the whole HRE in one concept.
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Yes, Mahazona, this is what I meant.
Oh, right. I donât see it like that personally. Italians were added to fill a gap rather than break an umbrella; Bohemians are almost entirely based on Hussites, and pre-Hussite Bohemia is better represented by Teutons, as very clearly demonstrated by the changes to The Promise (Genghis Khan 5).
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Quite the opposite, I would say.
AoE2 civs have originally represented groups of people based on ethnolinguistic or region. The teutons as the HRE were the only ones representing a state. âTeutonâ literally means âGermanâ in latin. Itâs like the direct translation. German, deutsch, alemĂĄn, teuton. And units speak an old form of high german, so teutons represent the medieval germans. Right? But the civ also represented northern italians and bohemians, both part of the HRE. But then if slavs are in the game, are bohemians teutons? or slavs? And what about the teutonic order? They were an independent state, not part of the HRE. Are they teutons then? Are all the crusader orders teutons?
Back then there were 4(ish) constituent kingdoms of the HRE. The kingdoms of Germany, Italy, Bohemia and Burgundy (this one was sometimes under of the french crown, sometimes independent). And the people living in those kingdom more or less fit ethnolinguistically with said political entities. The kingdom of italy had latin descendants of the western roman empire with some germanic migrants who moved in but quickly assimilated within the latin heritage of the region. The Kingdom of Germany was made of mostly west germanic speaking people with little to no latin roman influence (as opposed to france), and some lechitic slavs in the east (thatâs why I said âmore or lessâ), while the kingdom of Bohemia was mostly integrated for czech-slovak slavic peoples.
It was blurry back then. Nowadays, with the split of the HRE we have clearer definitions of what every civ is. Teutons are the germans. Thatâs it. As part of the HRE or forming a crusader order (teutonic order). Bohemians are the bohemians (or all the czech-slovak peoples, if you want civilizations map to be complete), Italians are those in the Kingdom of Italy and the venetians (yes, I said it), and Burgundians are both the Kingdom of Burgundy, in southeastern France, and the later burgundian state, which extended all the way to the low countries.
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But in that scenario bohemians are given the Bohemians civ. And the bohemia youâre play against there is certainly pre-hussite.
So shouldnât the Sicilians also come under here rather than a split of franks?
Sicilians are not a split from Italians. They were split from Franks.
Yeah but hes arguing that Bohemians didnt fit well there
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The Hospitallers were a small, but quite important naval power in the Mediterranean. Do not overread their role in the crusades with their greater history.
Eh, I feel it served both roles. One to fill a gap, the other to break an umbrella and specify. Both civs were technically covered by the HRE, so any additions there would end up breaking the umbrella anyway.
Yes, I am aware of this. In the original context in-game, they represented the HRE, the German civ. As I said, it is very transparent what the OG devs were trying to do with the AOK civs.
This is why I said that the line was blurring as time went on, yes.
Right, and I even admit to that in my own post. When I said that the line they represented was getting blurry, I was meaning their original representation of the HRE; they also perfectly represent the Germans as well however, which is the part that still works. I fully agree with you here.
Eh, itâs fine. I may have a different opinion on this, but I wonât deny that Venice is a city state located in Northern Italy so Iâll just agree to disagree with you at this point. Itâs an imperfect stand-in since it wasnât associated with the Kingdom of Italy at any point (which is my personal litmus test for their coverage and my personal opinion), however it works in loose association and I suppose thatâs what matters for now.
Yes, but they shouldnât be - theyâre a much worse fit in that context than Teutons were. The change actually nerfed the Bohemian army in that scenario substantially enough that the mechanics of the scenario had to be altered to accommodate the change. They couldnât change the army composition to fit the civ change, because that would mean giving them Hussite Wagons, Hand Cannoneers, and Houfnices, none of which existed at the time the scenario is set.
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I donât understand. Sicily was never part of the Kingdom of Italy
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That is my confusion too, there was no kingdom of italy in the middle ages so how can you say Sicily is not a part of italian kingdom and Venice papacy genoa or any other italian city state is part of the italian kingdom.either thy are all part of italy geography vise or none of them are.
If the ingame italians are lombard kingdoms then sicily and other parts like venice papacy should not get counted in the italians.
This is what hes talking about:
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This discussion is so strange to me. Iâve always found it obvious that civs in aoe2 only represent, you know, civs, not states or kingdoms.
That is, I never saw the Teutons as representing the HRE, let alone its components (Kingdoms of Bohemia, Italy, etc). They only represent the Germanic peoples in general. Apart from the Byzantines, I think they all (Conquerors civs at least) follow the same logic.
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What about when Frederick II Hohenstaufen was Holy Roman Emperor and unified all the realms of Germany Italy and Sicily?
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What do you mean? Did he acutally unified the kingdoms or just integrated the Kingdom of Sicily into the HRE? Genuine question. Donât know much about Fredereick II reign in particular. The article you linked says nothing about it.
Nevertheless, kingdoms united or not, itâs about the people living there, not the political entities. I used the kingdoms as a frame for establishing clear borders between where a civlizations ends and another one begin.
I can do that too. I guess Iâll just restore both and send you a PM after that. If anyone is interested too, just PM me
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TBH it doesnt mattter from where the civilization is, if it is easier for them to do bonuses for euro civ than so be it! The only argument against euro civs i see is if u come from somewhere else and want to play with ur civ in the middle ages (for example if ur from tibet or somewhere else)
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Thank you all for voting, it has confirmed my original thoughts