Ah f it, perhaps the only way forward is really a whole rework. They probably just should have individual training for units. Shits so messed up, from chukonu being your main xbow unit. Meteor hammers being a thing. Having Keshiks instead of Manchu as cav archers. Training everything in groups, no stable, and instead all units in one building.
Not even starting with the wonders and the monastery/explorer issue
What would make the chinese civilization unique then?
if taken what away? the banner training or the chukonu? Because as it is right now its simply just a design flaw not having a realistic anti cav unit in age 3 and training everything together. the only reason they dont get completely countered in 1v1 is because the manchu shipment exists
I do agree tho that the chukonu could and probably should stay, but having 6 armys in one building just for the last two to spill over to the castle can’t be considered good design
Taking the banner armies (after we deal with the consulate, wonders, monk explorers, etc.)
I also like the concept of banner armies, but not in a rational way. If you think the banner army system should stay than it still needs some level of rework. And my point sadly still stands, china does not have a real anti cav unit age 3, the stats and cost of the keshiks would need to change most likely, but keeping them trained together with another unit limits that possibility.
sure you could give china two barracks so units dont spill over into the castle. But that doesnt really fix the problems that come with the banner system
Or is your argument simply that china should have a mechanic that would make them unique if the banner system is taken away?
It’s not that the banner system should stay - it will stay.
I will guarantee you right now there’s 0% chance of changing one of their main gameplay elements.
I honestly think TAD is an awful expansion that should have never been made and the three Asian civs we’re stuck with are badly designed. I hate how nostalgic most people including the FE devs are for it and how little the Asian civs have been changed. The Meiji Restoration rework looks cool but the rest of the Japanese civ is still dumb orientalist crap.
I can’t say I personally care about the banner army but it’s definitely a weird mechanic. And the Chinese and Japanese have lots of weird references to the middle ages that don’t belong in a game set after the middle ages.
Maybe because it is a DEFINITIVE VERSION of a preexisting game, as easy as that.
I’d say the in-game Japanese got away far more with being representive of Japanese, than the other two in-game AD civs and their historic counterparts. BHG probably had some weeaboos…
I won’t take that excuse when the native reworks (which were poorly thought out, but still) happened. European civs have been changed a lot as well. There’s no excuse for keeping the TAD crap so untouched.
Yeah Idk how famous a reference the Meiji restoration would have been in 2005. Or the Ikko-ikki. But the Ikko-ikki are also problematic because most of their default names seem to be people from the 1200s. And also because they were enemies of the shogunate (and I think monk heroes shouldn’t be a thing).
The shrines-instead-of-houses are really dumb as well.
They did change, but all core mechanics are still there. I would say you will never see any core mechanics of vanilla civs change in definitive version.
A lot of changes to make them less cartoony and orientalist wouldn’t even require changes to their mechanics, just reskins and renames (which they have done for Euro civs, so I refuse to believe they can’t do to Asian ones as well).
Like giving actual horses to Zamburaks and Sowars (who shouldn’t be using camels to begin with), renaming the Caravanserai to stable (which is what it is, there was no reason to call it a Caravanserai instead when those are more like hotels), replacing the monk heroes and monasteries with non-religious equivalents (and then make actual religious buildings/units for them instead of this repentant crap), making it so Chinese and Indian units don’t all speak one language (it’s extra weird with the Indians, but Chinese have it bad as well), and remodelling wonders to be more generic (I really don’t think they should be able to build real, specific buildings everywhere, at best I’d keep the Shogunate since it’s so generic, but make it work like a fort).
So the fact FE refuses to do even that really gets to me.
And India in particular has the problem of trying to represent EVERYTHING adjacent to India including their colonizers (why is the British Raj represented through India and not though the British civ?). A lot of their units are straight up just ethnic groups, like Rajputs and Urumi Swordsmen, which is made worse by the fact they all speak Hindi. They should seriously rework the current Indians to be more specifically Mughals (again, could mostly be done with just remodels and renames) and add at least one more Indian/South Asian civ.
And I also don’t like Asian minor civs being restricted to holy sites when every other region gets holy sites on top of other types of minor civs.
I have some ideas that could work for the Chinese civilization. Below, I’ve attached some images that could be used to update the Chinese military units. If there is a user on the forum based in China, I would be very grateful if they could verify the units to see if they are accurate for the 19th-century time period.
Sentry
Irregular
Honored Qiang Pikeman
Honored Chu Ko Nu
Honored Changdao Swordsman
(New name and a new look for the Chinese Arquebusier: (“Ying Musketeer”). The “Firearm Battalion” (Huǒqì Yíng) was established in the 18th century as an elite imperial military division tasked with training imperial soldiers in the capital to operate muskets and cannons; the battalion remained active until the 19th century, eventually disbanding after the “Self-Strengthening Movement.” It is also important to note that the original Chinese Arquebusier unit does not actually use that weapon in the game; consequently, labeling this unit an “arquebusier” is both an error and a historical inaccuracy):
Disciplined Ying Musketeer
Honored Ying Musketeer
(New look for the Steppe Rider):
Steppe Rider
Disciplined Steppe Rider
Honored Steppe Rider
(New look for the Keshik cavalry unit. This unit is replaced by the Manchu Archer, a new unit that fulfills the same role. This unit was used during the Qing Dynasty in the 17th and 19th century):
Manchu Archer
Disciplined Manchu Archer
Honored Manchu Archer
(New look for the Iron Flai):
Disciplined Iron Flail
Honored Iron Flail
(New look for the Meteor Hammer. I couldn’t find any more information about this unit; the images I uploaded was the only thing I could find):
Disciplined Meteor Hammer
Honored Meteor Hammer
Ming Iron Troops
Rattan Shield
Perhaps, but is it really worth it keeping that mechanic just for the civ to suffer in every mode due to it? At this point I ask myself the question if we’re not a bit too nostalgic about it
This is one of the core mechanic we are talking about, it wont dissapear.
It is like saying french villagers should be settlers like any other euro civ or lakota losing their starting 200 pop for no reason.
It would change the gameplay too much
But that’s the point, it’s exactly not like french villagers. If it would be as simple as higher cost unit that is more efficient and has more ms and different armor type we wouldn’t have this discussion. You’re literally building units of two different types, how is that even a comparison?
Edit: Okay let me rephrase it. The problem is all these unique things you mentioned play into its civ favor, are they game warping? Yes, but its still favourable for them. The problem with chinas bannersystem is while its game warping, its not favourable for them and just for the enemy. When it literally used to be favourable for China it was too good which lead to all the nerfs of China. I’ll give you just the current numbers:
As you can see Changdao obviously inflate the number, and the rod have way higher MS, Armor and also anti Cav multiplier all not taken into acc of the HP/Cost or Atk/Cost. Meaning the Rod unlike what is shown here obviously outperforms the Changdao.
I’m also aware that the Chinese Skirm costs 85c but you can’t produce it alone so I just took it from the whole value.
the second and third one was done with AI, so the math might be wrong. Also yes China has a card which increases the ranged armor by +5, but that all doesnt change the fact that the Cav batch is fundamentally just a scam
Edit of the edit: It is a math problem—has been and always will be. You’re paying the full upfront cost of a unit batch, so it should be either A) more efficient or B) more effective. China goes option A. However, not only are their units not efficient enough, but you also get units you might not need, overcomplicating the whole thing even further.
Make it a tad too efficient and you have a Civ that is very quickly very good, make it inefficient like now and it’s just bad. That’s why I have this breakdown rn. Yes I love the bannersystem, but what rational thought would actually keep it if it’s just so disrupting to the whole civ and actual game balance?
It’s atleast better due to the 2 types of units than the Russian system. Alas i rekon most banner armies could use a discount on their cost though.
Also regardless if they replace the arquebusier or not, that unit needs a serious buff.
you think so? I think the russian system is more favourable, as it’s just for their infantry. Their Cavalry can be build however you need to.
The advantage is that you instantly get a (most of the time) synergising unit combination and normally more than a batch. The glaring issue is the cav armies beeing lower in ammount of a batch.
while you’re not wrong I just edited the message to Ekdal. Explaining the whole problem with it. Tldr it’s simply a math problem that is hard to balance
