Asian Civs Overhaul

Age of Empires III: DE III - Discussion
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Hello guys,

This is basically version 2.0, much of the Ideas you can see here a different to the ones before, especially for the Wonders. I now also wrote down the reasoning for the card changes so it may be simpler to follow my reasoning of why and what.
At last, again many thanks to UpmostRook, that guy genuinly just had good ideas, and much of what you see here was proposed by him at some point. I just want to post this all together to hear your thoughts on it.

1) Proposed Card Reworks for China

  1. Rename & Adjust “Standard Army HP” → “Mandarin Duck Formation”

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    • Effect: Grants +20% HP specifically to Chu Ko Nu and Qiang Pikemen (the units in the Old Han Army).

    • Reasoning: Supposed to push this card more into a xbow + pike upgrade than its current variant. Also if China is to get Cavalry Cuirass as an upgrade the Steppe Riders would get more HP again and I want to avoid making them to stat heavy - they already only get 40% more stats from the imperial upgrade for that reason.

  2. Rework “Old Dynasty Reforms” → “Tunlian System”
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    • Effect: Reduces cost & train time by -33% of the Old Han Army (Chu Ko Nu & Qiang Pikeman)

    • Reasoning: It’s current version is good as it fixes Chinas anti cav problem, however in no competitive match are you easily allowed to use Chu Ko Nu instead of the Arquebusier. Because Chu Ko Nu, not only have 4 range less, but also suffer from the fact that they shoot in a triple volley, so kiting with them effectively is harder by design, also you always use Arquebusier in Age III so transitioning back to Chu Ko Nu is often not even that possible (obvious exception are bigger teamgames where you can greed more but the point stands).
      Basically by pushing the Crossbow Pike combination into a cheaper angle like it is with some european Civs would open more possible strategies in Age IV

  1. Rework “Manchu Combat” → “Eight Banners Army”

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    • Cost: ~350 Coin

    • Effect: Grants +15% HP and +15% Attack specifically to Arquebusiers, Changdao Swordsmen, and Meteor Hammers.

    • Additional Effect: Now also gives your Steppe Riders & Keshiks +50% HP & Attack, but +25% cost.

    • Reasoning: The Aim is to give China a real anti cav option in Age IV you can always have in your deck no matter the mode. Transitioning into Age IV you usually always have Arquebusiers and Changdao, so putting the Keshik upgrade into the same one, while unusual it’s only real way to avoid card clustering in Age IV

  1. Expand “Western Reforms” Card

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  • New Effect: Grants +5% HP and Attack to all units (down from 8%) and enables you to train an Arsenal Wagon at the Town Center with access to certain European Arsenal upgrades:

    • Infantry: Infantry Breastplate, Flintlock, Paper Cartridges, Military Drummers

    • Cavalry: Cavalry Cuirass, Ranged Cavalry Caracole

    • Artillery: Gunner’s Quadrant, Heated Shot, Professional Gunners

  • Reasoning: Similar to Russia, China has weak units and it just needs these Arsenal Upgrades as they are simple but effective stat upgrades that cover all units (especially Keshiks)

  1. Rename “Mandarin Duck Squad” → “Southern Garrison”

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  • Change: Renames the card to better align it with the Chu Ko Nu + Flamethrower combination,
  • Reasoning: Frees up the name “Mandarin Duck Squad” for the mentioned Card above.

2) Monastery split

The current Asian Monastery tries to fulfill two conflicting roles: a religious + utility building (Monastery) and an outlaw/mercenary tavern (Saloon/Teahouse). This design relies on outdated tropes and lazy research

Proposal: Split the current Monastery into two distinct buildings:

  1. (a real) Monastery as a true religious/support building for priest equivalent units and utility upgrades. The upgrades should be the same as the european ones just some name changes would be needed like the upgrade Gas Lighting → Signal Lanterns

  2. Teahouse (or Sarai for India) would be the Saloon equivalent dedicated solely to mercenaries and outlaws like it is with the european civs.

The monastery change could then open up Unique Church cards that represent some major historical policy shifts or historical events that happened i.e.:

  • for China - Imperial Decrees
  • for India - Royal Farman
  • for Japan - Shogunate Edicts

3) Explorer Rework:

Currently, the Asian civilizations rely on Monks as their primary Explorers. We all know the current warrior monks are just fantasy land and rely on some tropes so I gathered past Ideas for what they could be changed into:

China

  • The Caravan Leader

Replaces the Shaolin Monk with a Caravan Leader—he would be a sword-bearing commander representing the typical trade protection, regional expansion, and frontier security.

His HP and Attack scaling would be worse, but he could keep all his other active abilites like the stun, and he could still be able to train shock infantry:

  • Disciples → Caravan Guards (similar in stats, but adjusted due to the removal of the RNG critical hits and conversion mechanics for a more consistent combat role, same for the Caravan Leader)

Japan

  • Tanken-ka [探検家]

which is literally just japanese for “Explorer”, you still could have two of them doing the stuff the current ones do. Just without the monk thing added to it. They would retain the ability to build shrines and the smoke ability.

India

  • Subahdar

A Subahdar would fit alright, India would only have one Explorer, but he could ride a camel or horse to offset that its only one. Historically they were a mix of Governor/General, and would ride at the front of the expeditionary force, with full authority from the court.

Chinese Wonders

  1. White Pagoda → Merchant Guild

    • Age-Up Bonus: Spawns Coin Crates (scaling with Age)
    • Passive Base Effect: Grants a flat trickle of 0.7XP per second (doesn’t scale with Age)
    • Gives 3 technologies:
      • Caravan Veteran Guard (Age II): 200f, 200c, 20% more Attack dmg and HP for the Caravan Leader and the Guards
      • Guild Retainers (Age II): 150f, 150c, increases the train limit of the Guards from 5 → 10
      • Express Permits (Age III) 100f, 100w, decreases the arrival time of homecity shipments by 25%

  1. Summer Palace → Imperial Banner Garrison

    • keep it’s current function and Age-Up bonus, just reskin, potentially a tech in Age IV which gives a small speed up in the automatic production
  1. Confucian Academy → Rocket Manufactory
    • keeps it’s current function and Age-Up bonus (just Age II gives you 3 Arquebusiers instead of Cho Ko Nu). Again mostly reskin

  1. Temple of Heaven → Communal Shrine (Shemiao)

    • keeps its current function and Age-Up bonus, just reskin

  1. Porcelain Tower → Gongfang (craft workshop)

    • keeps its current function, removes howerver the option to produce all ressources together and instead gives the option to produce export only so → food/wood/coin/export

Japanese Wonders

  1. Great Buddha → Kabuki Theatre

    • keeps the informers ability however, Age-Up bonus gives coin crates (scaling with Age) and allows mercenaries and outlaws to be trained, with Ninja always included in the roster

  1. Golden Pavilion → Blacksmith

    • keeps its current function and Age-Up bonus, just reskin

  1. Shogunate → Tenshu

    • keeps its current function and Age-Up bonus, reskin more into a Keep, also giving it the defense option like an outpost, or like the current Agra fort
  1. Torii Gates → Jinja (Shinto Shrine)
  • keeps its current function and Age-Up bonus, just reskin

  1. Toshogu Shrine → Taisha

    • keeps its current function and Age-Up bonus, just reskin

Indian Wonders

  1. Agra Fort → Qila

    • keeps its current function and Age-Up bonus, no reskin needed

  1. Charminar Gate → Imperial Camp

    • keeps its current function and Age-Up bonus, just reskin

  1. Karni Mata → Bazaar

    • keeps its current function. Will now also function as a Market, so the Age-Up bonus stays the same, just 100w less + reskin of the building
  1. Taj Mahal → Royal Garden
  • keeps its current function and Age-Up bonus, just reskin
  1. Tower of Victory (name stays as it’s already generic enough)
  • keeps its current function and Age-Up bonus, just reskin a bit

I deleted the Ideas for the Consulate changes, as most people were against them and tbf it’s not as necessary imo.

6 Likes
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About temple of Heaven I would keep its aging up bonus coheherent by changing imperial age one from 3 rice paddies to 2 TCs (+ limit).

On Consulate, if we are not creatibg more allies (swedes, Italy…) I would move the arsenal from Dutch to Portuguese (Japan/India) so dutch keep at 3 buildings as in TAD and it is related to the gunpowdry focus of Portugal.

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What are your plans for the card that’s already called Mandarin Duck Squad?

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Add the whole gang of :duck:

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I’d actually push for a Viceroy (Zongdu, Roju, Subahdar, for China, Japan and India respectively) type of hero unit - so it’s more applicable to all the Asian Dynasty Civs.

I also feel the Caravan Leader is best for any North Africa & Middle East/West Asian Civ if we were to get any Omani, Persian, Morocco Civs in the the future, being how they were trade crossroads (and sea, er roads), in fact the image of a caravan of pack camels and their Caravan Leader is pretty synonymous with the above.

Funnily enough I posted my suggestions in a Reddit future DLC list that had a Caravan Master (Karwan-bashi in Persia’s case) along with the ability to train Caravan Guards (suped-up militiamen).

With that in mind, having just China out of all current AD civs having a Caravan Leader doesn’t make sense - if we’re moving away from Monks, it would seem sensible to move all away from them and find a hero type that could be more applicable across the board.

With Viceroys, you can be fairly broad in approach. Thematically you have essentially a Governor-general assigned to new territory/settlement/colony (your in-game town). Stun, Disciples, and all the other abilities are so broad and abstract that you just keep them or just the ‘flavour text’ - Disciples themselves could just be Household Guards or Ceremonial Guards or whatever, for example.

Teahouses - fine. Temples hiring Mercs, somehow all well and good because they are repentant is plainly just stupid.

I’d also add changing Caravansai for the Indians to just Stables or something more in line with Mughals terminology for stables. We all know Caravansai were like fortified trade hubs and inns.

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The explorer could just be flavored as a travelling merchant and that may be wide enough to justify it for most any civ in Asia imho.

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I don’t like the Consulate changes. I think Expeditionary Forces sending units you may not need is a good obstacle you may need to strategize around. Changing it to normal training would also make them too similar to Influence units. I really like everything else, especially the Monastery/Teahouse split. Maybe the church cards are stepping a bit into Euros flavor, but it’s fine.

The Teahouse could also act as a small source of export or EXP, to mirror how Taverns/Saloons give coin.

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Consulate units are very useful. Leave them as they are. I don’t mind the rename of the cards to suit more and be historically accurate but the most important aspect should be the buff of China. JulianK said they are bad and he is rank 2 player and Treaty rank 1

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China is bad gameplay wise and terrible flavor and accuracy wise. It really is the worst of both worlds.

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Hey man, that’s nice to hear. I tried to make it as readable as possible, sadly it’s not as perfect as I wanted to be and sadly I’m not able to change anything anymore.

And yeah I did some more research and the Western Reforms came with a wide range of changes, however I’m not sure how balanced it would be if China had access to the traditional Artillery, be it just gatling guns. Still thanks for everything man.

Maybe, although I must admit neither rice paddies nor TC’s are that highly valuable, but you’re right it would still be better.

Maybe, the only Issue I would have with it that all “technologies” from Portoguese Allies are Ship units, so the arsenal would kinda break that, but yeah. Would have to think more about it tbh.

Damn, good point. However the existing Mandarin Duck Squad card (8 CKN + 1 Flamethrower) is actually a complete mismatch already.

Qi Jiguang’s historical Mandarin Duck Formation (Yuanyang Zhen) was a formation with an disciplined infantry squad (shields, pikes, and missile support), not a siege deployment.

To fix this, we can simply rename the existing card to Southern Garrison (or Zhejiang Auxiliaries), as southern provincial troops were famous for using frontline incendiares and crossbows. That cleans up the current card and frees up the actual Mandarin Duck name for a proper melee formation tech/card.

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I agree that moving away from the generic martial arts Monks across all Asian civs is necessary, but I think forcing a single “Viceroy” archetype onto all three limits their so to say “historical flavor”. Each civilization has its own distinct identity that fits different explorer models:

  • China (Caravan Leader / Silk Road Master): China works uniquely well with a Caravan Leader. The Silk Road, Tea Horse Road (Chămǎ Dàodào), and frontier trade networks were central to imperial logistics, making a trade-focused explorer actually historically grounded and flavorfully distinct for China without needing to push it onto Middle Eastern civs.

  • Japan (Bugyo / Hatamoto): Japan fits a regional magistrate (Bugyo) or a high-ranking retainer (Hatamoto) much better than a Rōjū (since Rōjū were senior council ministers based in Edo rather than field commanders). A Bugyo or Hatamoto commanding household guards fits the Age 1 exploration and territorial expansion theme perfectly.

  • India (Subahdar / Mansabdar): A provincial governor (Subahdar) or high military commander (Mansabdar) makes total sense for India to represent Mughal administrative authority.

Yup you’re right. Saw your post and wanted to add it, but I’m unable to do any changes to it for now. Maybe I’ll just make under this another smaller post with the missing stuff.

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Yeah I can live with that, it’s for a reason the last listed number. Also the Church Cards are just a minor idea.

The Teahouse however probably should not give Export or XP because…

  • Export represents foreign diplomatic trade
  • XP (Home City Experience) is already given by the Church, making it redundant

And the local Teahouse is a domestic social hub making it fit more with the Coin trickle

Yeah this post is trying to accomplish that without making them op, because their eco can be really good with the porcelain tower and all the other stuff they have going for them.

I agree, their Skirms, Iron Flails, Meteor Hammers, and Explorer Monk got way weaker over the years. Over the last 10 years I believe they lost:

  • -1 Ranged dmg on the Arquebusier
  • -10% all action damage on the Card “Repelling Volley” (for Arquebusier and Chu Ko Nu)
  • -0,05 ranged armor on the Card “Double Faced Armor” (for Iron Flails and Meteor Hammers)
  • no cover mode for the Explorer

all of that together just lead to them being way way weaker in Age III, further more as they have nothing exceptional in Age IV besides the Card “Old Dynasty Reforms” everything else is just sadly not good enough.

I think these Changes would be enough to fix that gameplay issue. If you mean them training in banner armies I would have to disagree however.

Obviously the use of Chu Ko Nu, Flying Crows and Meteor Hammers is just fantasy land, but changing that is another thing that maybe won’t happen - besides the Meteor hammer, that guy could definitely go.

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I made a mistake on that one, it’s the Bell tower.

The Drum Tower I meant was this one.

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These two are build opposite to each other

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TBH that’s fair - heck the Euros don’t all have explorers as Polish and Maltese prove

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This is exactly what I’ve been suggesting for years. China’s overseas exploration was indeed largely driven by merchants. Many of the earliest Chinese records of Southeast Asia were left by merchants. A caravan leader would be a perfect fit.

During the Qing dynasty, merchants who made their fortunes abroad would often bring their wealth back to their hometowns and invest in local development. Over time, their achievements became part of the local identity of their home regions. That also fits nicely with the idea of the Home City mechanism.

Bugyo definitely makes a lot more sense. It’s entirely possible for a feudal domain to have more than 1 Bugyo.

From the 18th to the 19th centuries, there were quite a few Japanese explorers and surveyors involved in surveying Ezo (present-day Hokkaido), Sakhalin, the Kuril Islands, and the Ryukyu Islands, such as Mogami Tokunai (1755–1836), Kondo Juzo (1771–1829), Mamiya Rinzō (1775–1844), Inō Tadataka (1745–1818), and Sasamori Gisuke (1845–1915). I’d say Japanese-style explorers could also be a great option. Having two explorers would make more sense than having two Bugyo. It also makes more sense for explorers to build shrines on newly discovered lands than for Bugyo to do so.

There should be just one for the Indian hero, and Subahdar or Mansabdar would be fine. Unlike the Japanese, they don’t need to build shrines, so there’s no need to have two hero units.

The current Mansabdar mechanic could be adjusted accordingly.

  1. Name it Subahdar, and have the Subahdar itself train Mansabdar units instead of having them trained from a specific building.

  2. Like the above, name it Mansabdar, but need to rename the existing Mansabdar units so the Mansabdar can train them. If they are going to be renamed to Zamindar, then the card “Zamindars” would also need to be renamed. The candidate for the names could be: Marzban (a provincial governor responsible for frontier regions), Faujdar (a military commander responsible for maintaining order), Kotwal (a city official responsible for law enforcement and public order), or something similar.

  3. Simply name it Mansabdar and have all the auras belong to this hero itself, with the player able to switch which type of unit it boosts. In this case, there would be no need for existing Mansabdar units.

There needs to be a cheap, simple, generic healer, perhaps just a Monk, to serve the role of Priest. Each civ’s Monk would have a different skin, and the Indian one would look even more distinct since it would be a Hindu monk rather than a Buddhist monk.

The current Shaolin Master, Sohei Archers, and Brahmin could become the Shaolin, Zen, and Bhakti units respectively. Those minor civs should have a new tech allowing players to ship them after researching.

A relatively more radical idea would be to have the Monastery not only train Monks, but also function somewhat like an exclusive Native Embassy, allowing each Asian civ to directly gain access to its corresponding minor civ: Shaolin for Chinese, Zen for Japanese, and Bhakti for Indians.

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I love the suggestions, but as far as wonders go I’d make them not based on specific buildings. The only current ones I’d keep are the Shogunate, the Torii Gates, and maybe the Confucian Academy.

Also, I still want an Indian split (no, I don’t think adding Marathas and Sikhs as revolutions is a good alternative), but I’d be fine with getting an overall rework for the current Asian civs first.

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This reminds me of the Chinese card rework we discussed before.

No changes:

  • Mongolian Scourge (II)
  • Repelling Volley (III)
  • Siege Combat (III)

Removed:

  • Siege Hitpoints (II)
  • Siege Attack (II)
  • Standard Army Hitpoints (II)
  • Territorial Army Combat (III)
  • Manchu Combat (IV)
  • Old Han Reforms (IV)

With changes:

  • Double-Faced Armor (II): will now also affects Steppe Riders.
    (Make up as Standard Army Hitpoints removed.)
  • New Army (III): Renamed to “New Weaponry”. Turns Qiang & CKN into Changdao & Arquebusiers, and additionally gives Changdao & Arquebusiers +5% HP.
  • Fire Dragon Manual (IV): Gives Flamethrowers & Flying Crows better improvements than their current effects, but now costs coins.
  • Western Reforms (IV): Also allows researching Infantry Breastplate, Flint Lock and Paper Cartridge in Villages.

New cards:
(Basically a redistribution of the effects from the removed cards.)

  • Ancient Tactics (II): Gives CKN, Qiang & Flamethrowers +20% HP.
  • Baturu (III): Gives Qiang, Changdao & Keshiks +15% HP & attack.
    (Anti-cav units improvements are consolidated here.)
  • Field Force (III): Gives Changdao, Arquebusiers & Meteor Hammers +15% HP & attack.
  • Imperial Hunt Ritual (IV): Gives Steppe Riders & Keshiks +50% HP & attack, but +25% cost.
    (Split up from Old Han Reform.)
  • Tuanlian System (IV): Gives CKN & Qiang free Disciplined upgrade, -33% cost & train time.
    (Split up from Old Han Reform, but make them cheaper rather than stronger.)
  • Crouching Tiger Cannon (IV): Gives improvements to Hand Mortars, but also makes them use 2 population.

Reuse card icons:
(So, except for Flamethrowers, we can almost directly match the card effect targets to the units shown in the icon art.)

  • Standard Army Hitpoints → Ancient Tactics
  • Manchu Combat → Field Force
  • Old Han Reforms → Tuanlian System

Split the War Academic into two buildings:

  • Banner Camp: Costs 150 wood, Buildable from Age II, can train Old Han, Standard, Ming, and Mongolian, and upgrade their units.
  • Banner Garrison: Costs 250 wood, Buildable from Age III, can train Territorial, Forbidden, Imperial, and Black Flag, and upgrade their units.
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In the Jewel of Empires mod we’re developing I suggested having Pundits as the explorer for the civs in India as it kinda… just works honestly.

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Wonder Buildings themselves shouldn’t appear anywhere outside the Home City. I can’t understand why the Japanese or Indians would build Tokugawa’s grave or Mahal’s grave in a newly established domain in Florida or Alaska. Also, when your new territory only has a single TC and a house and is still undeveloped, building a huge and lavish structure there feels rather out of place.

In my view, these are the Wonders that could be remained since they could reasonably have them not that specific.

  • Shogunate: Renamed to “Tenshu”. Tenshu is the main keep structure of a Japanese castle. Its grandeur and imposing appearance also serve as a symbol of the feudal lord’s authority over the area. Its current skin is not particularly specific either.

  • Torii Gates: At Inari shrines, which are associated with prosperity and bountiful harvests, people have traditionally donated additional torii as offerings to pray for blessings or express gratitude. The most iconic example is Fushimi Inari Taisha in Kyoto, with more than 30,000 torii, but other Inari shrines can also have dozens or even hundreds of them. However, having torii gates without a corresponding grand shrine looks visually rather strange. Perhaps the Toshogu Shrine could be reskinned into a more generic Taisha (lit. “grand shrine”).

  • Confucian Academy: Its appearance does not clearly correspond to any specific real-world building, and its name is also fairly generic. However, having it produce artillery units is extremely inappropriate. If it is going to be remained, it really needs a completely new function, such as having XP trickle and multiple techs that can be researched. One of these techs could perhaps allow the Summer Palace equivalent (since it is very specific, it could be replaced with something like AoE4 Barbican) to choose to spawn Flying Crows.

  • Agra Fort: Renamed to “Qila”. The Mughals did build many forts (qila), so it could represent a generic Qila fort, simply using Agra Fort as its visual reference, much like how European civs’ churches are based on actual churches. The building itself is the age-up effect, so a fort-type building would need to exist regardless.

  • Tower of Victory: Its skin is the Vijay Stambha, but the practice of building a tower to commemorate a military victory is not specific. India also has another famous tower, the Qutb Minar, which served as the visual reference for the Tower of Victory in AoE4. So it is acceptable for this to function as a generic victory monument that merely has its skin based on a specific structure, but I think it would be better with some modifications, and ideally, it should still receive a brand new skin.

The other age-up options can be completely replaced with generic alternatives, for example:

  • Golden Pavilion → Blacksmith
  • Toshogu Shrine → Taisha (dedicated to praying for a good harvest would be more appropriate for the effect)
  • Great Buddha → Kabuki Theatre (not only having the Informers ability, but also allowing mercenaries and outlaws to be trained, with Ninja always included in the roster)
  • Summer Palace → Barbican (like the one in AoE4)
  • White Pagoda → Guild (for improving Caravan Leader)
  • Porcelain Tower → Trade Workshop (potentially with a new option to provide an Export trickle)
  • Temple of Heaven → Folk Temple (dedicated to deities in folk religions, such as Mazu, could reasonably provide the effect of Transcendence)
  • Taj Mahal → Royal Garden (using a more generic four-quadrant layout with fountains and pavilions)
  • Karni Mata → Bazaar (also providing the functionality of a Market)
  • Charminar Gate → Imperial Camp (refering the tradition inherited by the Mughal Empire from Central Asia. It could reasonably be used to provide any military-related effects, and perhaps it should also be movable, similar to Lakota buildings)
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They were from the British Raj period. If possible, I’d prefer something from before the colonial period.

1 Like