Asian Heroes and Healers Rework

I don’t want a supervisor. Tusi were also military leaders. They operated on the frontiers which is the core theme of the game. That’s why the Europeans have Explorers, Settlers, and Coureur Des Bois not Lords and Peasants. Heroes should be the on the ground leaders of frontier settlements, a that’s exactly what Tusi are.

What worldview? The current Village model has yurts. That’s not a structure from China proper.

It should also be added to the Mandarin Duck Squad card and maybe available through the Summer Palace too. But training from a Tusi would be a convenient way to slot it in with a reliable training method that doesn’t disrupt too much of the civ.

Is WA War Academy? I’m intending this not to be available at the War Academy.

Wolf Soldier/Trooper/Warrior are all fine. It’s definitely more of a native auxiliary though.

Is capo chief? Maybe it didn’t translate.

Here. This is the heart of the matter. The area managed by Tusi is a native tribe of local ethnic minorities, not a settlement that so-called Chinese immigrated to and established. That’s why I think you make Tusi a hero of Chinese civilization the same way you make a North American native Warchief a hero of United States civilization or a Yakut chief as a hero of Russian civilization. Something is just wrong.

The current skin of the Villages makes the civ seem too focused on the steppe peoples in the north, rather than the vast majority of people from China proper. That’s why people ask a typical Chinese brick architecture for the Villages instread of a nomadic look. I also don’t want to see the hero of the civ defined as Tusi, which would make the civilization too focused on the minorities in the southwest.

Besides, the yurts don’t fit the ethnic minority peoples in the southwest, where the Tusi were.

I’d rather see units like Lang Xian and Three-eyed Gunner as Chinese Consulate units replacing the German ally in the Consulate, and then the each type of Chinese Consulate units could make up special banner armies like Mandarin Duck Squad with the War Academy’s units. Also, since this special kind of weapon became famous precisely because Qi Jiguang’s Mandarin Duck Squad used it, I don’t want it to become a icon of ethnic minority peoples’ troop instead.

So because of this, we could advocate for a new minor civ in the Parallel Rivers, Indochina and potentially South China maps. The unit will be the Wolf Soldiers, and one of the technologies could ship a Tusi hero that has an aura to inspire nearby native units.

Perhaps this minor civ may be named after a shamanistic temple, referencing the shamanic practice prevalent in the folk beliefs of local ethnic minorities, such like Mo or Bimoism.

The potentially South China maps could include Yangtze River, Yungui Plateau, Sichuan Basin, and Southeast Coastal Hills (or Pearl River). Except for the Yangtze River, everything else is suitable.

All this is obviously more decent, more interesting and also more accurate.

Just consider Viceroy as a Chinese local governor and military leader, like the General of federal civs.
Having said that, I personally still like the armed caravan/merchant leader as an alternative to the Chinese monk.

Chinese merchants and travelers have explored Asia’s important routes such as the Silk Road, the Tea Horse Road and the Maritime Silk Road for thousands of years, and established settlements and trading posts along the way. Their exploration in Southeast Asia established the earliest settlements of Chinese immigrants and became the origin of today’s large number of overseas Chinese. In addition, during the Ming and Qing dynasties, many regional guilds began to form, taking control of China’s economy and using their wealth to develop their hometowns.

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You’re just asserting that only Han are “so-called Chinese”. The minorities of the northern and southern regions are just as much part of the Chinese civ as the Han. Tusi established stable rule over the frontiers and that facilitated later Han migration. For a unit who’s role is to subdue bandits and establish alliances with natives on the frontier, a Tusi is not a bad fit. At the very least it’s far more appropriate than a Shaolin Master.

Again, China is not just Han. The yurts are representative of the Manchu and Mongol elements. But the current Village model is kind of ugly so I’d be fine with changing it at least for later ages.

Tusi were in the northwest too. They operated along the majority of the border territories.

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Why do you hate the Germans so much? They were extremely important in supplying and modernizing the late Qing armies. Three-eyed Gunners should be a standard Chinese unit in my opinion.

Lang Xian should be Han Chinese units. They could just be trained alongside Wolf Warriors because of the similar name and because it avoids the difficulty of trying to cram them into the War Academy. Getting them from cards and wonders could be other ways to obtain them.

That’s not going to happen. They’re too geographically constrained to justify and I’m not sure if new maps are even on the table with Vividly gone.

This is just not a good name for a unit or even a particularly good theme. What you’re going for would more concisely be described as an Explorer.

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You get me wrong. The reason why I emphasize “so-called” is precisely because I know that these ethnic groups are also Chinese citizens now, but what we are discussing is the past. A few centuries ago, these peoples would probably not have been considered “Chinese” by both themselves and Chinese.

Native Americans are also citizens of the United States, but would you use their chiefs as heroes of American civilization? Tusi and its people were not the main group in China, and the Chinese civ in the game is based on the Dynasties in China proper instead of the tribes and chiefdoms ruled by the Tusi. What I am emphasizing is, it is too much, too biased to use Tusi as the hero unit that is considered as the core of characteristics of a civ, unless the civ is just based on their entities, their the people of their tribes and chiefdoms.

Tusi “are” natives, not who from the Chinese dynasties to establish alliances with natives. Their entities were not just simply border towns of the Chine dynasties, but their own native tribes.

They are chieftains of native tribes, accepting titles “Tusi” from the Chinese dynasties and agreeing to the nominal rule of the dynasties in exchange for autonomy and peace. It is described in many sources that they effectively formed numerous autonomous petty dynasties under the suzerainty of the central court. In other words, they were essentially chiefdoms allied with the dynasty, not directly part of the dynasty.

Even if later there were chieftains with Han ancestry or Sinicization, which might not be common, they were still the people from the tribes and not to the people from the dynasties. It would not change the fact that Tusi and its people were essentially local natives, not outlanders, while in the game, we are outlanders to construt a new settlement. The immigration of Han people is probably not Tusi’s job, and it is even more likely not what Tusi likes to see, especially when the Tusi is a pure native.

The fact is that when Han immigration increased and reached a point, they lost their autonomy and were forcibly annexed by the dynasty. The Ming began its colonization of the southwest in the 1370s. By the beginning of the 17th century, there were only a few Tusi entities. Finally, the Qing Dynasty invaded these areas with force and ended this system. To be the feature of a civ in the game, the timing of Tusi isn’t decent either.

Anyway, the Chinese civ that the player plays as is colonizers to the native autonomy that already exists. So how can such a civ have a native chieftain as a hero? When the map is the Carolinas, do you make the Cherokee chief the hero of the civ? Also, policing the tribe may have been part of Tusi’s responsibilities, but its main duty is to stabilize the relationship between the tribe and the dynasty. It was the dynasty that needed support and asked them to send out private troops. This is basically what a minor civ looks like. It’s not much better as a hero of the civ than the Monk.

I don’t hate them. But the fact is that many Western countries, especially Britain, France and the United States, have had a profound impact on China’s modernization. Germany was not the only one, and not even the most important. It is too late that they came to China and started their business, accounting for only a small part of the entire timeline of the game.

This is far from a problem. Vietnamese also had implemented the Tusi system. What’s more, when it is to be a minor civ, it represents the ethnic groups in southwest China and the interior of Southeast Asia, under the name of the shamanism of their traditional beliefs, and the Tusi system is just a technology of it.

Even if it were to be renamed Chinese Explorer, I wouldn’t mind at all, because that means it does fit the role of the hero in the game. It’s absolutely thematically appropriate that they explore, establish trade relationships, build settlements, and return benefits to their home cities. In particular, because they need to travel long distances, the caravans would be armed and hire convoys to escort them. These convoys and convoy companies are an important part of Chinese Wuxia culture and appear in Chinese fantasy literature and entertainment works. It should be also appropriate for them to appear in a game that is also an entertainment work.

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Personally i’d prefer if Asia is no lomger restricted to religions for minor civs.

Although I must say, I’m not so knowledgeable about that part of the Chinese history, it would be awesome if the Chinese hero stays how he functions. A melee infantry unit that can stun treasure guardians and train 5 other melee units (preferably shock infantry units or non tagged like the Spanish war dogs).

And for that, the caravan leader just fits the best, I personally don’t like the idea of a Tusi simply because he is not Chinese. Yes, the Iron cap prince and viceroy are both Chinese, but are ill suited because as already mentioned before they have nothing to do with fighting.

Now beside that, I find it incredible how many good ideas there are on this forum to change simple things, like how the Asian heroes work. Makes me really feel like a little kid again imagining how that would play out in the game! Haha

Maybe after the release of AoM retold we get a new civ + a few overall changes for the Asian civs. Ahh a man can dream.

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The main thing I’m looking forward to after AoM’s release is the new modding possibilities rising from both games using the same engine.

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Hey guys I have a question for the saloon units. Is there any real reason why the outlaw units for example Pistolero, Renegado and Comanchero take 4/5 pop space?

It’s to compensate their extra-strong stats with very low prices. (In theory, I know the Comanchero is absolutely terrible from every aspect).

Yeah I see, but wouldn’t it make more sense for these units to need only 3 pop and Comanchero 4 pop, but with the one homecity card they get respectively to 2/3 pop?

Now that you speak of the extra high stats, do these outlaw units not have terrible fire animations?

Depends, the Renegado actually has one of the best fire animations because he has a bolt action rather than the rusty old muskets everybody else has. Maybe their rate of fire is nothing to write home about. (Although afaik it’s faster than normal too). So you may have a case for the Pistolero, maybe.

The Thugee is actually a pretty competitive option in a pinch, since they can 3 shot a musket in Commerce age, it’s just that they are kinda niche due to the pop use.

Hello guys, as it wasn’t really said how the “church” for the Asians will be. Is the “church” supposed to have all the same techs as the European and if yes do you think it would be too good?

Japan already has it, it is however locked behind the Dutch consulate.
I reckon India would gain a lot by having these train time upgrades, same stands for China.

What’s your opinion on this? Do you think it needs to be different?

I don’t think it needs to be the same at least. Religion in Asia is rather different than in Europe, and most of the church techs have little to do with religion anyways.

I somewhat like the idea of distributing the techs in other places, the way it’s implemented in Asian civs is a tad bit convoluted. (Locked behind the Consulate for Japanese and having the techs hidden behind a plethora of cards in the other two civs’ cases.)

But there’s no reason why it couldn’t be done in a different manner.

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Do you mean in terms of what the techs do, or how they are called? I’m not sure if I understand you correctly :frowning:

Either answer is correct.

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Me again here, I thought a little about what could be changed about the two wonders, the “white pagoda” and the “Charminar gate” to make them more functional.
Because I only came up with something about the white pagoda for now I wanted to share the idea and ask your opinion about it.

This change has specifically the hero change in mind as you then wouldn’t be able to train disciples anymore. And In the monastery wouldn’t really be space for them…

priest → abbot (or maybe some other name)
Spy → Jǐnyīwèi (the secret service of the Chinese emperor, so pretty fitting)

…because we already have two fitting equivalents. Squeezing in the disciple now would be to much, as he is not even needed here. And instead of making the abbot able to train them why not just make them a unit that becomes available through the wonder “white pagoda”.

They should have some polearm weapon and will obviously not function anymore as shock units, but more as some kind of rodelero! :smiley:
We could also move the current upgrades for the disciples and monk from the monastery, to the white pagoda. The stats, techs and costs would obviously be in need of an adjustment but you get the gist of it.

They could be trainable in the wonder itself or maybe in a native embassy, I think they should have a build limit, but I’m not sure how high/low it should be.

If there is a need to make outlaw builds more viable, there is also the option to let the white pagoda give techs or some kind of passive that buffs them. (As requested already before)

What do you think?

China already has two melee heavy infantry units so this would be redundant. It would be a good fit for the Shaolin Temple though.

Yeah, you are right but I don’t see them as useful if they are for example a shock unit. That’s why I proposed them being like rodeleros.

I am Chinese and I agree with this Taiwanese friend’s views.
Perhaps Tusi can be a good choice as one of the optional skins for heroic units, but it is not suitable to become the default identity of Chinese heroic units.
I say this not because I have any “Han chauvinism”, but because this core unit should choose a setting that is far more common. For example, some more conventional military officials, rather than some non-conventional identities with special references. Therefore, as the core heroic unit of the Qing/Ming Empire, the chief executive of a border ethnic minority who was sometimes not even completely controlled by the court, at least it feels strange to me. Perhaps the “指挥史” and “总督” can be considered options.
There are various possibilities for skin design. For example, Koxinga, Qi Jiguang, Yuan Chonghuan, Sengge Rinchen, Nurhaci and so on.