Average out Goths as a civ counter or get countered

Two-Handed Swordsmen do win against Huskarls, but it is hard for them to catch up to the Huskarls, not to mention that, without Supplies, they are not cost-efficient.

The best unit Mayans have against Huskarls, is their Eagle Warriors, and even their Plumed Archers still do bonus damage.

They trade evenly. There are 5 issues that occur during a normal game:

  1. the amount of upgrades to get to 2h (maa, swordsman, 2h)
  2. the overwhelming speed of production from Goths which gonna make sure that you’re always fighting outnumbered
  3. the potential counter from Goth of their own (better) Champions
  4. lack of raiding potential which Huskarls have (pierce armor + speed)
  5. much lower speed of 2h compared to Huskarls (micro potential)

It is not just the production, but also the cost, and the fact that Huskarls can outrun Champions.
Goths can afford to keep flooding you until you break, or just go around you and raid you to death.

“Goths can afford to keep flooding you until you break, or just go around you and raid you to death” is a blank in meaning slogan.

The cost of units in the mentioned fight is equal. Even though 2h have no supplies it’s equal. Remember that the basic cost of Huskarls is 120R. Than you take 35% off, which is 78. Champion with supplies is 65R, without is 80R. If we’re talking 30 2h v 30 Huskarls we can assume it’s equal cost.

True, but those 30 2HS will seldom be in a position to force the Huskarls to fight, and any Huskalrs the Goths player actually loses in a fight, he can quickly and cheaply replace.

As you also mentioned, Goth Champs also overwhelm Mayan 2HS, so there is no winning with 2HS in any regard, unless you have a very lucky engagement.

Agreed. That’s why I think Mayans should get supplies. It’s still going to be rough but it would be an alternative option in post imp to selling resources and barely making any eagles:

The issue with going eagles is how much gold you’re spending and food for upgrades.
1000F 700G eagle line upgrade
750F 450G El dorado
and then you continue on spending huge amounts of gold on a unit itself - 20F 50G.
I don’t mention blacksmith upgrades case both players gonna get the same in this situation.

I disagree. Mayans just beat almost every other civ in the game, so it is nice they have a strong counterpick.

True, but Mayans should be going for them regardless, or else their whole army will be pretty susceptible to Skirmishers or Knights.

The game shouldn’t work like that. There should be options for everything and timings of upgrades, units, compositions, mindgames deciding the game. Not the civ pick.

What are you even talking about

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poor mayans. A civ so good they have a leg up on almost every civ in the game and is practically an automatic pick in every tournament has one civ they are terrible against.

How do you plan to tone down mayans against other civs if you plan on making them better against goths?

How do you plan on fixing britons vs civs with siege ram?


the entire point was that you say no civ should have such a huge advantage against other civs.

Mayans are the most picked civilization in the game at the highest level.
Mayans are one of the most picked civilizations in tournaments.

so if what you say is true, and you think no civ should have absurd advantages over other civs, do you really think it’s fair that a civ should have as many advantages as Mayans does without any downside?

put your money where your mouth is.

Personally, i don’t care to nerf Mayans, i think they are fine. what i AM doing is challenging your opinion.
You are of the opinion that no civ should have absurd advantages over other civs. and yet you want to buff one of the best civs in the game right now.


goths are not even close to top5

i’m talking about Mayans. or do you believe that they aren’t a top 5 civ too?

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Anyway Mayans should have a chance against Goths like other archer civs

so if you believe that, don’t you believe other civs should have a chance against Mayans?

because clearly most don’t, seeing as most civs literally very rarely get used in tournaments and Mayans are picked all the dang time.

clearly that means, according to your logic that those civs don’t hold a candle to Mayans, and they should be toned down.


I think Turks and Burmese the only civs with small chances against (still better than Mayans vs Goths) Mayans.

also Mayans are weak against siege pushes anyway so they have weak points

if that is the case, why are many civs rarely picked in tournaments? why do Mayans enjoy a 7% pick-rate at the highest level of play, while another 24 civs don’t even enjoy half that?

if you truly believe counter civs shouldn’t be a thing, you should also believe that no civs should be head and shoulders above others because that ALSO wouldn’t be fair.

so let me see your proposed nerf for the top 10 civs, and your proposed buff to the bottom 10 civs.

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I don’t say there shouldn’t be counterpick civs, I say that every civ should have a chance against the other, even it’s small

and Mayans do. they have until mid to late castle age to do damage to goths, before the goth flood runs away.

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Mayans do have a small chance against Goths. They can cripple Goths before Huskarls come into play, and just pile on for a win.


I know this is an aside, but since you keep bringing this up, are we cool with this type of gate keeping? The vast majority of players (aka the group of people continuing to keep this game relevant) are well under 1600+. Balance changes etc. effect their gameplay as much as the 1600+. And people with lower ratings can have as good a grasp of game concepts, while not being as good at execution. Look at T90, who can never touch the Viper, but understands the game.

Just a thought, maybe acting like an elitist is cancerous to the community?