Aztec needs midgame/lategame options

Age of Empires III: DE III - Discussion
22

Aztecs and Inca are less similar then the Europeans.

The 3 war hut units are similar but that’s it.
The other 3-4 units are very different.
Jaguar Warrior is a melee unit that is good against Infantry and Cavalry, the the Maceman is more siege than anti cavalry.
Eagle Warrior is Shock Infantry (countered by Light Cavalry) and is only good against Heavy Cavalry while the Bolas Warrior is Heavy Infantry (countered by Light Infantry) and is good against both Light and Heavy Cavalry. Bolas is more like Carolean.
Arrow Knights deal very long range ranged damage with strong modifier against Artillery while Huaraca deal much lower range siege damage and have no positive modifiers.
Skull Knights are more comparable with Maceman but have much sronger modifiers against Cavalry.

4 Likes
23

I’ve been happy to see Aztec getting touched with last Patch.

It’s a very nice first step into making them better, with indeed more diversity, without making them “broken” since they (apparently) have a very high winrate.

I still think Aztecs lack strategies, and for being a OTP with them, everytime I play against them, they’re so easy to read, and by just turtling/scouting, I win almost every single time against them.

This is why I will bring a few point from the last patch :

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    It’s 1k5 gold for a lategame card, for a melee unit that get hard busted against Canons/Skirms, which is extremely powerful and efficient against Aztecs. So I think this should be completely reworked. HP would be better for example, or increasing their stealth speed would be another good way.

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    Give this Inca’s card to the Aztecs, but give Maya/Zapotec and one another instead. This would help so much their gameplan (Would I team up with Zapotec to get higher attack ? Would I team up with Maya for HP and Tankiness ?) .
    Historically, don’t forget the apogee of the Aztecs were the Triple Alliance, the Mexicas. This totally makes sense, even if the native chosen is not very historically accurate.

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    The associated card that enable Native Scout for the Aztecs needs to be especially set for the Eagle Scout. But of course, with the power seen with Native Scout with other civs, it’s important to keep in touch if it’s balanced or not. This could bring one more viable strategy to the Aztecs, making them way less obvious to fight against.

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    The issue I have with this card, outside of Treaty Game, is that you wait for the card to arrive, and it gives you nothing right away. It does save you 60% gold for all incoming Temple cards you will research, but in Age3 you are under pressure, booming, micro-ing and macro-ing by a lot. You can’t afford losing momentum by sending this card. If it would give something on research, in exchange of an initial cost, maybe it would be seen more.

Now that said, please devs and game designers, consider another building for the Aztecs, the one in my original comment, the Temple.

Aztecs were very religious, and I’m pretty sure we can have something very amazing and fun made out of it ! :smiley:

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24

Eagle knights are not countered by light cav though, only by skirmishers and archers.
Neither is light cav countered by other light cav. they have bonus damage only against melee cav (and melee shock infantry)

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It’s again me on feedbacks with the Aztecs, and I can say that again, a new patch, and interestings buffs towards the SkullKnights :

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I need to try this out, but on paper, with all the previous buff, it sounds like it finally justifies its “HeavyInfantry” tag :smiley: !

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26

Yes! now we also have a native embassy that functions as a tavern and will allow us to train mortars! I know it is for all native civis but I feel it especially benefits the Aztecs due to their limited siege (only arrow knights)

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27

Oh, I didn’t read that :o, that indeed seems to solve that issue as well ! That’s nice from the devs :slight_smile:

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now they will also have access to all mercenaries! it’s great

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29

Aztecs have been nerfed again in last hotfix ?

I just realized last week-end that the Aztecs have been nerfed, and it wasn’t really shown. Here what wasn’t shown :

  • 2nd age shipment : 6 coyotes runner => 5 coyotes runner (110resources nerf + 27seconds creation time)
  • 2nd age shipment : 13 macehuatlins => 10 macehuatlins (210 resources nerf + 23seconds creation time)
  • 2nd age shipment : 10 macehuatlins => 9 macehuatlins (70 resources nerf + 23 seconds creation time)

Where does this “creation time” comes from ?

I think since you create units 5 by 5, at maximum, everything that isn’t a mod 5 adds the actual creation time, and the time you lose of doing so. So in every single nerf, aside from the resources/unit stats, time matters so much too. Especially from an “Offensive Civilization”

Why does it hurt them even more ? The coyote

Well first, I don’t really understand the nerf on the slingers, but it’s “not as bad” as the coyote one. Aztecs need so much of their Coyote Runners in early. so this -1 coyote matters so much, and it’s at this point not even worth to the equivalent hussar card.

Coyotes are individual, and unlike an hussar, it dies faster. So when you have 1 hussard for 2 coyotes, if one of your coyote dies, you have “half of a hussar” (if that makes sense).

In the other hand, if an european civ, gets a hussar get to mid-hp, it would still do its maximum damage, unlike that 1 coyote. And that sucks.

Coyote dies faster to Town Center shots, and in some early they can die easily from 2/3 shots.

It has been explained in other forums that also players (and I) feel like Coyote don’t do well even against Skirmishers and canons, that is a high issue because Coyotes need at least 3 cards to be correct (Aztec Mining, Coyote Combat and the Temple Xipe Totec). That’s a lot of time required, for a unit that is key for the army of the Aztecs, and for a civilization that is “offensive”. It’s paradoxal yeah.

All those nerf impact them even more.

Aztecs, again struggling into finding their identity ?

What are the Aztecs, offensive civilization that can’t do well ? They’re actually less offensive than a defensive and very similar civ that are the Incas. That sucks.

If you get to read all my messages and answer in this post (which I invite you to do), I really liked the love that was put into the Aztecs recently, but this nerf makes no point.

For example, the Age 2 time spend that was buffed two patch ago from 90s => 70s was really great, but because of (indeed) very strong SkullKnight age2 rush, why not just nerf this age up option ? It was really great to have other options than the “Fast Age Up” into “700w or 3warrior priest”.

But now again, we’re back to have less options. 5 coyote shipment is not great at all. Less Macehuatlins is a bit of an issue, but on top of that, that hurts.

Don’t forget that the Aztecs, since DE unlocked all shipments, there is old cards that are there and that are so useless. It contributes by a lot their lack of identity/options.

For example, look at that age2 gold shipment :

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For what reasons would you go for the 500g instead of the 600g ? Why would you go for both ?

What to do then with the Aztecs ?

Define their “offensive” identity. Why is it an issue Incas do so much better when the Aztecs are the one that are “offensive” ?
Incas have a strong economy, their high cost unit is okay since they can still produce villager and produce military, have a lot of buildings so it walls their base.
Aztecs don’t have a really strong economy until midgame/lategame, and after a lot of cards.
Is it really what an offensive civilization looks like ?

I would suggest a sort of deep rework of the civ :

  • a new building (Temple), bringing a lot more options
  • rework of many useless cards, giving them more options to move on of “what you always have to do”.
  • define what their units are and what they should do.
Do you think Aztecs fits well as an “offensive civilization” since last hotfix (22 of April 2021) ? (1 : disagree, 5 : agree)
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0 voters

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30

I think they are looking to nerf the Aztec rush, at the moment it is one of the most powerful and fastest in the game, to encourage players to do other strategies.

31

Yup, that Skullknights age2 rush was too strong. It’s a totally derseved and fair nerf.

But I don’t get why they nerfed the others choices then.

It was pretty nice to get a free barrack and aging up 20seconds earlier, now it’s just too slow and you’re forced again to choose your “Fast Age Up”

That’s pretty boring and lame :frowning:

1 Like
32

How do you rush with them?

33

I think that the way they are, they are fine, it was very frustrating to play against Aztec and know that they were going to rush or do a skull FI, now in ranked I only find Aztecs, Russians and Chinese, they all do the same over and over You see, I almost miss seeing Swedes and Japanese people. Compared to the past, the Aztecs are much better now and that is appreciated!

34

I don’t know, every time I play against Aztecs (or if I play them), it’s so obvious to scout on them to punish them hard

  • 10warrior priest age 2 commit ? raid + all in and you win
  • Fast Industrial ? FC 2 falconets + mass musk all in on TC you win
  • new Fast Castle into all-in ? FC 2 falconets, turtle, and counter attack when Aztec player don’t have anything
  • Age 2 commit & all-in ? Turtle + boom, you counter attack once you have 2falconets in age3 and you win
  • etc…

And yeah, every strats with any civs can be scouted and counter, sort of, but in the case of Aztecs, they don’t have a strong eco behind this to allow them to lose their all-in.

I think Aztecs win greatly because players don’t know how to play against them, and this would explain why you almost never see them in tournament, and why you don’t see them in higher elo. If you play or played Age of Empires 2 I would compare them to Goth, where everyone think they’re Over Powered, but in the end it’s just a “newbie crusher” haha.

That said, I wouldn’t mind their strong age2 being nerfed a bit, if they in the end give more strategies to them.

35

Well, in fact, those problems that you are telling me, are in general of the native civilizations, I am main Inca and Haud, when I play against Europeans, they raid me, they rush me, they take out falconets, and it costs me much more to repel them, why not I have proper artillery and cannot easily call militia, etc.

In short, in my humble opinion, it is not a specific problem focused on the Aztecs, it is a general problem in native civilizations. It can not be that I touch a Dutch, and the guy takes 5 falconets protected by 30 ruytiers or more reaches fortresses and does not even have a unit capable of destroying them from a distance!

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36

Yes, you got my point.

And I still think Aztecs are the worst of them. Chimu runners can’t be snared, Haud have mantelet or falconnects + riders, etc…

Meanwhile Aztecs have Arrow Knight that are super slow, 2 pop and super long time to load an attack :frowning:

1 Like
37

Well, in my personal experience, if you defend the cannons well, the chimu will never be able to touch them, they are in the same condition and condition as the coyotes. The only alternative is to use huaracas, which have the same problem as the arrow knights, but it is to emulate culverins. On the other hand, to obtain cannons with haud you have to go to Industrial, and the mantles are not effective to destroy artillery, but if they are protected with masses.

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The first thing is that all abovementioned nerfs to Aztec’s age II cards were not communicated in patch notes. It shouldn’t be like that. Community is particularly interested in balance changes so it should not be a secret when devs are making some changes to the civ’s balance.

The second thing is about Aztec advantages. Their strongest strategy was to quickly rush an enemy. That strategy is being nerfed and this is a big nerf (nerf to 3 military cards). Now it won’t be that easy for Aztecs to win in early game so they will try to win in a longer one. And a middle game is Aztec weakpoint in my opinion because of their weak eco.

They do not have houses gathering resources (Shrines, Torps, Banks, Kancha Houses), they do not have stronger villagers (French Coureur des Bois) and their Farm gathers food way slower than european Mill.
In my opinion to compensate the early game nerfs I think Aztec needs a little boost to middlegame economy.

Apart from that I have to say that Aztec balance changes made in patch 20322 and new Skull Knight ability are really great :wink: I’m sure all Aztec players waited for this a very long time.

5 Likes
39

Lol, aztecs have the best farms in the game. Farms and mills have the same gather rate because villagers havent to move to gather food

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I think too that the aztec skull knight need a speed boost. Somebody told it can be a sprint ability (rechargeable for example), i would love to see skull knights sprinting xd. It would be much fun. And in scenario there are two different aztec temples, and both are beautiful. I would love see in multiplayer those two or less one of the temples (I think they are targets in campaign). This temples could train natives, boost them with special upgrades, or can boost economy, or i dont know.

1 Like
41

It is interesting what you are saying. I know that food gathering rate from Mill is 0.67 while from Farm it is only 0.50. So the difference is huge (34%).
Do you mean that actually gathering rate from Mill is lower than 0.67 and in fact it is only 0.50 because villagers need to move from time to time?

I proposed a sprint ability for Skull Knight some time ago but now Skull Knights received additional 0.5 speed in age IV card and also very powerful Obsidian Storm ability so I think they are powerful enough :smiley: Btw. Obsidian Storm adds 50% to damage (not 33% as patch notes said) so they are very strong now.

Totally agree. One of the things which bothers me when I’m playing Aztecs is that they do not have almost any building with additional military/economic upgrades. They do not have Arsenal technologies at all. I enjoy upgrading my units in Arsenal or Advance Arsenal for European civs or in Golden Pavilion for Japanese.
New temple building with additional technologies is a great idea in my opinion.

7 Likes