Aztec needs midgame/lategame options

Age of Empires III: DE III - Discussion
42

On the point on gather rates:

Basically yes, because villagers do not move in farms (and rice paddies) the gather rates are “lower” but in reality is about the same since there are inefficiencies when villagers move and bump into each other (Mills & Estates). See gather rates in this link: Gathering Rates - The ESOC wiki for Age of Empires 3

*As shown, rice paddies (food and gold) and farms have lower gather rates because the villagers are not moving and therefore, constantly gathering.

Another point on gathering rates: All Native American Civs do not get the extra 30% gather rate from their Estate which reduces their gold gather rate later on in the game. I suppose this is a feature since original AOE3 but this makes them less viable in late game and treaty games.

Euro Estate:
Book Keeping: Estate +10%
Home Steading: Estate +20%
Ore Refining: Estate +30%

Native Estate
Earth Ceremony: Estate +10%, Mine +10%
Earth Gift Ceremony: Estate +20%, Mine +20%

Although these native upgrades are cheaper and affect mines as well, it is uncommon for native civs to benefit from increased mining rates as once you build and transition to estates, you are not likely mining anyways.

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43

About this, I think that 1st estate should be cheaper for natives, they have to pay 600wood for mining upgrades, thats not cheap. Also I think that wood upgrades are too expensive, at least the 1st one. Europeans have to pay 100 food while americans have to pay gold too.

44

An interesting idea but a simpler solution could be to make the better economic upgrades (E.g. Equivalent of Steel Traps) from the market (100w) just like Europeans and Asian civilizations.

Native Farms and Estates can provide upgrades for solely farm and estate gather rates but provide the same economic upgrade rates to give them a competitive gathering rate late game.

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45

I think that farm upgrades are fine cause they power up your hunting, doing Natives the best at this. The issues comes fron estates, how you have said before, when you can reach them there arent mines on the map. Also, in treaty only Hauds have problem with food but they have cows too. Lakota get bisons and Inca have houses. The real issue its the coin.
Other option could be agrarian ways giving you a estate wagon, a buff in this building and free upgrades but not for farms

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46

400 wood (Farm) is an enormous investment for a few food economic upgrades, especially in Supremacy. I like the idea with Agrarian Ways Card, if it provided a building wagon (farm and estate) + the free economic upgrades, it might be worth sending (still a bit situational in Supremacy).

And I agree with the comment on gold gathering, it is difficult for native civs. I guess it is a bit alleviated with Aztecs since they get Aztec Mining but it only is useful for a limited amount of time (until the mines run out).

I found myself sending this card more often now though cause it makes coyote runners and slingers cost food+gold rather than food+wood.

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47

Aztec mining its the best buff that they could give to aztecs for treaty. I send it after villagers on age III and I can swim on gold while Im spamming vills. It could be cheaper the first farm and estate, not for Hauds that have travois.

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48

I love the idea. BUT not sure if you are a treaty player, right now in the treaty they are not bad after getting captured mortars and double buff on the last 2 patches on their eco. What I would suggest is to slightly reduce their unit’s cost, because at the moment their units are really expensive in a long-term game and of course let’s say if you have 2 players with the exact same skills, one play a European civilization and the other will play Aztecs in a 1v1 treaty match, the player with the European civilization will win for sure because of the better economy. Also, they still lack anti-infantry, Cayote is not good enough. I mean Inca also has shock infantry as their anti-infantry but Chimus are much better than Cayotes. Aztecs just need some adjustments. I love their civilization design but still I would love to see some buff/changes happen to them.

49

I played aztecs on treaty since WC, where warrior priest started dancing automatically. Playing on legacy you needed teammates for cavalry support, other way was a lost if you had to fight vs most of civs but Japan. Now aztec players can be independent by ourselves. Also walls were a big issue caused by the bad siege, now we have mortars and the 10 extra pop helps a lot, really. Mortars protected by 40 ERKs and some coyotes do a great job. Finally war song make a difference for coyotes and dances-micro can win battles

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50

For the temple, they could only retexturize the Aztec temple present in the campaigns, so that it did not look like a ruin, as was done in the Improvement Mod, of the original version of AOE 3. A double temple by Huitzilopochtli and Tlaloc could also be added. There are illustrations in codices that show that these double temples existed in other cities in the empire, and not only in Tenochtitlan. This would make the Aztecs more competitive and give the game much more beauty, make the Aztec cities more like Aztec cities.Another thing. Instead of producing priests and Skull Knights, it could produce priests and Cuachics (which we could hardly call an Aztec berserker). A Cuachic could be a single unit that would inspire the surrounding units, increasing the attack, for example (adding to the campfire dance). It could increase the attack of some units only, like those of the Nobles’ Hut, or only of the units of the war hut. Temples were used as platforms to launch projectiles when surrounded and cities were conquered when the temple was burned, so it would be interesting for him to have an attack.

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51

Give domesticated turkeys to the Aztecs! They had no cows or llamas! There are already wild turkeys in the game! Anybody, make a flock of wild turkeys appear, instead of cows.

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52

The Incas could have a palace (A bigger bed in the middle, with walls full of gold, and a courtyard with gardens that have some statues of golden llamas and pumas, surrounded by smaller beds, with a ushnu in the middle), or temple (as a temple of pachamama, with many waters, or, more representative of the stereotype of the Incas, a small temple of the sun, like a bed with a lot of gold, higher roofs, elevated on a low platform, with perhaps a wall or circular tower or semi-circular, with water fountains, gardens with statues of llamas, corn, shrubs and peasants made of gold), that produced halberd workers (the only Inca harrier is the explorer, but it is a well-represented weapon). Instead of a temple or palace, an Acclahuasi could be added, which functions as a factory, which could produce and employ the priestesses.

Haudenossaunee could have a “Council House” that produced wise women (they were an essential part of the government of this people, which was very democratic). These wise women could be healers and, as the Haudenossaunee, like the Tupi, engineered their woods and forests, they could “build forests”. Wood is lacking in the last ages of the Iroquois, in various scenarios.

For the Lakotas, perhaps a unit could be added, I know there is a problem with representing the Crazy Horse, but the type of figure he represents, of a spiritual warrior, could be used. It could be a unit that inspired the others to have more attack, and that produced the units all on the battlefield, like a daimyo.

For the Aztecs, I think a tall temple is really missing. We have the nobles ‘hut, with that horrible name, which is a tiny temple, the nobles’ hut, which represents a Quetzacoatl-Ehecatl temple, but the great Aztec pyramidal temples are not represented. I even understand that there is no palace. Towncenter fulfills this role of perhaps home to the ruler of a small Aztec colony, but every city had a main temple, a unique building, dedicated to a tutelary deity. Could it be an ordinary Quetzacoalt temple? From Tlaloc? Tonantzin? I found it interesting that it produces Skull knights and priests, but I could have a new unit, like a Cuachic (something like Aztec berserker), that would inspire a group of units in battle. The Aztecs had beautiful and gigantic palaces, at least they could be added in the campaign scenario editor, as well as Inca palaces or temples.

They may be ideas played haphazardly, but it would add beauty and make the game more interesting and realistic.

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53

The closest you’re gonna get to that is the Heyoka. I think it’s a concept that would suit the Lakota well, but it would need to be as a replacement to the Warchief, as the two were (fairly often) one and the same - the thing is that the title of Heyoka was far more important than that of Warchief.
Warchiefs were not important people. Their entire job was the boss the Akicita around (Akicita are the Warrior Societies acting as tribal “helpers”) and even then, the Akicita could tell the Warchief "No," if they were given an order they could not or would not follow.
Warchiefs were not important people. They did not hold that much power, nor that much sway. And a Chief? A Chief’s main job was to get all the actually important people into the same tipi at the same time so they could discuss important things. The white man decided that the Chief and Warchief were important people simply because they were who they talked to the most - but this is like declaring the ambassador as the ruler of this foreign nation rather than the Council, who actually led the people.

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54

The white man decided they were important people because the white man understands chain of command, and taht if you take it out, or make the positions too uncomfortable to be in, you will demolish all attempts at organized warfare from the enemy.

Taking out an ambassador, in times of war, can cut off the troops from oficial government orders, intelligence and communication. It is a lot like killing a king.

55

I really like your proposition of an “idle” unit that would galvanize surrounding units, or maybe put a malus to ennemies ! It would contribute to the beauty of the Aztec army :smiley: !

For the temple, we had the same thoughts, if you’re curious I have made an old mod (but not possible to update it to recent patch due to issues with the game itself) Files · no-balance-update · Julien / Aztec Rework for Age of Empires 3 · GitLab

I didn’t go in too much depth because I didn’t want to invest “too much” into something that would never come to life, and also that every patch your mod will break so it’s a bit annoying to maintain.

Thank you for your share and your ideas :smiley: !

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56

I feel like you are deliberately going out of your way to argue every post I make on this forum, especially when you literally have no idea what you’re talking about.

57

Not at all, and it is not my fault if you feel persecuted.
I almost never talk to you, as far as I can remember.

I have a very good idea of what I am talking about. You want to know how the white man thinks? You ask the white man.

No one though Chiefs and Warchiefs were like kings, at least not the ambassadors and military commanders that had to speak with them.
Thing is, any diplomat or military man knows chain of command when he sees it, and knows how fragile it is to dismantling.
Posing as if they thought your Chiefs were Kings, may have been a clever maneuvre to start attacking your society from within, breaking up the tribal council and popular voice, by elevating one voice above others, on a diplomatic level, which would quickly cause dissention and animosity.
Also, making one man bear the whole burden of a decentralized tribal society, would wear him down, make him prone to mistakes.

We learned well the ways of diplomatic and social warfare, from the Asians.

58

Warchiefs and Chiefs were treated as the leaders of the Natives, when they were not. The reason this is confusing is because it leads to things like game expansions being called "The Warchiefs in the modern day when that makes very little sense - it’s like basing a game about Britain as a whole on a specific Captain of a ship and then calling them the leader of Britain, completely ignoring the Monarchy and Parliament.

Literally never happened. Warchiefs like Tatanka Iyotake were leaders, yes, but not because of their status as a Warchief - Tatanka Iyotake was followed and trusted in by the people because he was both Heyoka and a Medicine Man, as well as an important part of the council. It’s just odd that the only thing he’s ever remembered for in the modern day by Americans is his one title that meant the least - Warchief.

You literally don’t know what I’m talking about and you’re still trying to argue with me.

1 Like
59

Idea- as you mention Aztec are weak because if they boom they are very easy to punish, so what if they tweaked the card 3 warrior priest and instead called it warrior priest training, what it does is warrior priests spawn three times as fast and it delivers a warrior priest with it. It’s more like removing a card they already have an giving them a new card instead so maybe “reworking” wasn’t the best word for me to use

60

:rofl: I like how for pretty much everything against Aztec the answer is 2 falc, they really have a difficult time against that card

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61

Only good answer I found is aging with the warchief boost to age 3 because it one shot the 2 falcs if grouped together. But you have to make it in time tough…