Aztec schiavone

Age of Empires III: DE III - Discussion
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Another day, another insane proposal. But in an attempt to help in an area that Aztec struggles immensely with(skirm masses), I propose a Schiavone type unit:

blowguns
Ambush Ceremony(III, 500c): Sends 9 Empire Blowgunners, your villagers learn the Ambush Ceremony, to spawn Empire Blowgunners over time for free at the community plaza, also enables them in the American Citadel.

I imagine the spawn time is around the same of a healer/WP.

emb
Empire Blowgunner(name can be changed xd)
125c, 1 pop, 16 Build Limit, Shadowtechs with each age
Mesoamerican warrior with a good hand attack and range, fires darts out of a blowgun at long range to counter infantry. Does particularly well vs skirmisher/archer type units. Benefits from Attack Promotions.

The Empire Blowgunner has slightly more speed and HP than a Schiavone to compensate for the worse blowgun animation, but has slightly worse range, forcing them to commit to any fights they find themselves in(much to Azzy’s aggressive style).

Also benefits from promotions to value keeping them alive. Just like with other Schiavone/Counter skirm units, they are hard to acquire traditionally, you’re required to either dance for them at the plaza, or ship the Fort and pay large amounts of coin for them similar to a Mercenary type unit. They also lack multipliers vs light cav, so they wouldn’t take over the Slinger’s spot on your roster. I also do propose a hard build limit on them, as they could become oppressive vs certain civs and with certain unit comps.

Also, if you’re familiar with the Aztec HC customizations, the unit is already in the game!
hcc

Overall the exact numbers and ways of acquiring them can be tweaked, these are just examples, but let me know what you think! Every other civ has more than 1 way to deal with infantry/skirm mass, all Aztecs really have is just throwing more Coyotes at them, so this at least gives them some more options if you decide to dedicate a card to it.

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I agree the Aztec lack a proper response to skirmishers. However, I don’t like the idea of “empire blowgunner”. It sounds way too generic and it doesn’t have to. Furthermore, the skin of your blowgunner represents the cuextecatl, which is already used by the arrow knight. Among the Aztec military ranks, two very important ones are missing in the game : The otomis and the cuachicqueh. While the latter should be a replacement to the skull knight, the otomi could very well be this potential anti-skirm unit. Either as a counter-skirmisher or maybe even as a melee shock infantry acting as a lancer, why not?

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For sure, its definitely a placeholder name, I just figured it’d be better than “Tlacalhuazcuahuitl warrior” xd

I agree, ideally imo a blowgun unit should don an ichcahuipilli and loincloth, indicative of a soldier with 0 to 1 captives. The cuextecal would likely not be carrying blowguns into battle, but the cuextecal unit holding the blowgun is already in the game so for the sake of this example I decided to use him. Also FE doesn’t seem to like making new assets if they don’t have to, so I doubt we’d get an actual new model, we’ll probably have to settle for retextures.(example: the age2 and veteran Rekrut model is just a reskinned irish brigadier with different hats)

For sure! Otomi/Shorn ones would almost certainly be a shock infantry unit, a more powerful Coyote or lancer type like you said, which should absolutely also be in the game. With their ferocity though I can’t imagine them using a ranged weapon of any sort, they would certainly be melee.

The coyote runner is actually a very good shock inf unit, but vs heavy skirm+goon or skirm+goon+musk he just dies so fast and you have to mass so many of them for them to be powerful, Slingers also fail miserably in skrim wars, so imo Azzys still need a ranged answer to massed infantry. It was a little better back when ERK+AK could dps skirms in fights but their ranged atk is just too nerfed now.

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I love it. I think it’s extremely important to take care of this

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Yeah, either the Otomi or the Shorn One could be armed with the Tepoztopilli polearm which could indicate that they are a more powerful hand shock infantry unit and where they can deal AoE damage as well in melee. This Tepoztopilli polearm is described as being halfway between a halberd and a spear.

The other shock infantry unit could be armed with a Tepoztli (Copper or Bronze Axe) or a QuauholĹŤlli (There was apparently a version of the QuauholĹŤlli club that looked like a Macuahuitl, but with a longer handle, and where the sphere-like mace head was located right below the head of the Macuahuitl. The image that I have Included in this post features this respective hybrid weapon, which is supposed to be 150 cm or close to 5 feet in length).

The Skull Knight or rather the Tlacochcalcatl could replace the [Aztec War Chief] or just be a customisable skin for the respective war chief.

If it is possible to implement then maybe the Arrow Knight (Cuextecatl) could have an area denial ability, where they will fire an incendiary arrow that will set the ground on fire when fighting against other enemy units on land. The fire caused by this incendiary arrow will rapidly spread out to a certain radius and last there for a certain amount of time, causing damage to any enemy unit that stands in the fire.

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Trainibg units ceremonies are pointless, as that units cant be massed and useless in lategame. Reason nobody use SK or Tokala in treaty.

They have to be trained at nobles hut.

Also, can we avoid to use more HC cards?? Aztecs are too strained already

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My other thought is allowing you to create them through Aztec’s Native Embassies after researching the Wild West big button, sort of like their own unique outlaw.

I think it’s risky to allow counter-skirm units to be created traditionally and in large numbers, some civs would really struggle to fight a unit like that. That’s why Schiavone and Counter Jaegers are purposely tough to obtain.

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the hadjuk exists as a counter skirm outlaw and there is outlaw blowgunner unit that already exists which has bonus against all infantry

might not be a bad option

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Agree with the need of new unit, but putting it as plaza/hc only unit just not a sustainable solution for Aztec weakness.

I wonder why Aztec can only train 6 land unit and why War Hut and Noble Hut need to have separate upgrades to get fortified. They should combine both buildings upgrade so Noble Hut can train 4 unit just like Lakota corral.

The new Blowgunner then can be an age4 unit if Aztec was considered strong enough in age2 or age3

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I feel like the main reason it was put in the plaza was so it would have a build limit. Just put it in the noble hut and give it a build limit of 20. The Lakota already have a base unit with a build limit so it’s been down before.

In age 5 it should have 20 range.

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Why they should have a limit?? Artillery hasnt got any, Giant Grenadiers either.

This unit would be vulnerable to cavalry and artillery while it has low siege. It wouldnt be an issue.

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I think Aztec needs more affection and attention in terms of several problems (it seems that it is falling behind with respect to other civilizations) this would be a short-term, effective solution. In my opinion, it should also have a positive multiplier against light cavalry and the rank should be 19

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Maybe let the Arrow Knights cause more damage against infantry? as their role is actually a human cannon.

I always want those blowgunners in playable games, like replacing the Eagle Scouts.
However, It might be a bit redundant to require a card to enable a build-limited unit.

If they replace the Eagle Scouts, and become a skimisher counter as your wish:

  • Enabled by default but trainable only by the Chief.
  • Use no population but with a build limit.
  • 5 of the build limit at the beginning and +5 when hitting the Fortress/Industrial/Imperial Age.
  • Have the stats with a multiplier against treasure guard like the original Eagle Scouts from the beginning, but get a multiplier against light infantry from the Fortress Age.
  • The Smoking Mirror card could also buff them a bit and give +4 build limit.

Ultimately, they should be still weak in general but a kind of aid that helps your Coyotes and Slingers more easier to deal with light infantry rather than as a primary tool to kill Skirmishers.

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someday, someone important will realize that only letting aztec have 6 trainable units, most of which are anticav, is inevitably going to be impossible to balance because units are forced to be multiple things. Just by default, Spain has… 13? There’s some overlap, yes but they dont just have one mediocre slow cannon that is NEW™ countered by skirmishers

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No, all of that is done by Jennys the pet jaguar, the ones who could get the bonus vs skirms like indian tigers.

Aztecs dont need to be more dependent on the War Chief as the enemy all have to do is kill him.

Can we stop giving them more micro??

And again, why a build limit? Sweden already has leather canons dealing siege damage with regular RoF since age II and AoE

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I suppose the biggest reason for suggesting the unit to be tougher to access is because a counter skirm unit can easily overshadow Slingers or coyote runners, wouldn’t massable counter skirms defeat any purpose to create coyote runners? Cannons are naturally gated by their large resource+pop cost and having to invest into an expensive building.

On the other hand yeah civs like Malta have the fire thrower or the abus gun which fill similar ranged anti inf roles so it might not be that bad.

Usually when I make a proposal like this, I purposely make it underpowered, it’s always better for a new feature to require buffs rather than require nerfs :sweat_smile: So you’re probably right, I think accessing them from the nobles hut would be fine, or perhaps from the native embassy either as an outlaw or native.

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I don’t mind if the Blowgunners can be trained at other places in the late game, but at the beginning they should be trainable only at the Chief since they replace the current Eagle Scouts.

As far as i know the Eagle Scout is not historical but just a copy from the AoE2 unit.

They don’t use population in my concept. They are supposed to be combat auxiliary.
From this perspective, they may resemble native units.

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aztec is hard to balance i think, this concept could destroy em, if such a unit make its pressence in aoe 3’s aztecs, at least needs to be with very caution. 9 blowgunners to begin with, is very abnormal

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Naaaahhhh If you think about it objectively, other civilizations have at least 2-3 options to attack infantry or infantry masses. Heavy cannons, hawks, mercenary (many and diverse), light cannons and not counting additional unique units of each civilization… I have played with aztec for more than 10 years, believe me son, there is no one better than me to tell you: a change in aztec is necessary and you can trust me when I say that this is not enough

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i would preffer more the Aztecs getting a native American compact(which would ally em with any native civ or tribe in 3rd age) than adding to them any new unit. If a unit is added jaguar might need a nerf and maybe slingers.