Balance Changes Suggestions

It is so hard to make a post where people agree with more than 1 suggestion when it comes to balance changes. I’ll try anyway. I’ve put this icon :eight_pointed_black_star: beside any ideas for new techs, I’m welcome to suggestions, these are just my ideas, because I think the tech being replaced needs a change.

Berbers: :arrow_up:

  • :arrows_counterclockwise::eight_pointed_black_star: Kasbah Removed, possibly replaced by Rashidun Cavalry. This tech costs 400F 300G, takes 40 seconds to research, and makes all cavalry units move 5% faster, and reduces the food cost of all stable units by 10. This means that the eventual speed will be the same as the Cumans, but they also pay to reduce the long term food cost for their army. This reflects how the Rashidun army was well provisioned, and was famous for rapidly repositioning on the field of battle, letting them win many decisive engagements. The effect is just an idea, I needed something reasonable to replace Kasbah.
  • :arrow_up: Team bonus replaced with Team Castles Work 15% faster. The tech Kasbah makes more sense as a team bonus, but as it is no longer locked behind a castle and resources, it would need a nerf.
  • :arrow_down: Lose access to Genitour. I don’t mind if they keep it as a regional archery range unit, but it needs to no longer be the team bonus. I also want to change the stats and give it to a few other civs, hence the idea to remove it from Berbers.

Bohemians: :arrow_down:

  • :arrow_down: Monasteries, Blacksmiths, and Universities cost -50 wood. This won’t have too much of an impact on the Blacksmiths and Universities, because you usually only build 1 per game, but it hits the oppressive 4 Monastery Bohemians monk rush on maps like Arena, by making the 4 Monasteries slower to get down.
  • :arrow_down: Only Feudal Age mining techs are free. Having the Castle Age techs makes it too easy for them to do monk rush or Castle drops on maps like Arena, and they aren’t as useful on open maps, so it isn’t too bad a nerf there. I don’t want to make it all gold techs free or all stone techs free, because that still keeps at least 1 of the two strategies too strong, as well as possibly overnerfing the other.
  • :arrow_down: Siege Engineers removed. This is to hit their lategame, where the Houfnice, if microed well, is impossible to kill with regular bombard cannons. Houfnice itself basically functions as a sort of Siege Engineers anyway.
  • :arrow_down: Hussite Wagon loses the Hussite Wagon armor class, but gains the basic building class. This change means that to counter a Hussite Wagon spam on more closed maps, there will be more options than just Mangonels + Redemption Monks. Knights can also work, but Bohemians have really good spears.

Britons: :arrows_counterclockwise:

  • :arrow_down: The +1 range for archers in Imperial Age is removed. This is designed to push the player towards Longbowmen as a lategame comp, while still giving the Castle Age powerspike.
  • :arrows_counterclockwise: Elite Longbowmen get +1 range, so they aren’t impacted by the nerf above.
  • :arrow_up: Yeomen changes from foot archers get +1 range, towers get +2 attack, to foot archers get +1 range, Longbowmen train 15% faster. The tower attack upgrade is next to useless, so this tech helps people tech into Longbows faster. Most of the time, Crossbow play in Castle will still be the most common thing, but at least now, Castle into Longbows is more viable, and the transition from Arbs into Longbows or Crossbows into Longbows is easier.

Burgundians: :arrows_counterclockwise:

  • :arrows_counterclockwise::eight_pointed_black_star: Flemish Revolution removed, possible replacement could be Shock Cavalry. Shock Cavalry costs 1100F 800G and takes 30 seconds to research, with a possible effect being that whenever Coustillier does their special attack, they also do the bonus damage as a regular attack damage to all other units in a 0.5 tile radius, meaning it deals the damage, but it can be negated by armor. This is like a Logistica effect, with more damage, but only when it does the attack burst. This is just the best idea that I could come up with, because FR needs a change.
  • :arrow_up: Flemish Militia can be trained at TCs in Imperial Age. They are otherwise the same as currently.
  • :arrows_counterclockwise: Coustillier attack recharge time decreases from 40 seconds to 20 seconds, but the bonus damage changes from +25/+30 for normal/elite to +15/+20 for normal/elite. The faster recharge time makes the unit less micro intensive and easier to use, but it is harder to rapidly snipe units, or quickly overwhelm certain units.

Burmese: :arrow_up:

  • :arrows_counterclockwise: Order of Manipur Cavalry and Howdah is swapped, because Elephants are more of an Imp unit, and Burmese have their archer problems earlier.
  • :arrow_up: Manipur Cavalry cost decreased from 650F 400G to 550F 350G, because it has to be accessible in Castle Age, considering it already takes a Castle. Research time also decreased from 40 seconds to 30 seconds, because it needs to come in sooner as well to have an effect in time.
  • :arrow_up: Old Manipur Cav effect reintroduced partially. New civ bonus, Cavalry and Arambai get +1/+3 attack against buildings in Castle/Imperial, Elephants get +3/+5, to promote their use. This is nowhere near as strong as the old Manipur cav, which was +6, but it is free, so I think it is ok.

Celts: :arrow_up:

  • :arrow_up::eight_pointed_black_star: Stronghold removed, and possibly replaced with Schiltron, which costs 550F, 400G, 50 seconds to research. Possible idea for Schiltron is that it gives spear line +3 pierce armor, and +2 attack. Right now, Stronghold is pretty much useless, largely because Celts lack Bracer, so it affects buildings that aren’t even as good as other civs. Schiltron reflects the Celtic spear formations with shield walls included. This would be a good change, because it promotes the Celtic play of Pike Siege push, which is kind of off meta right now.

Chinese: :arrow_down:

  • :arrow_down: Chu Ko Nu gold cost increased to 40. The Chu Ko Nu is a really strong archer unit, but for it is too cheap for how effective it can be. I don’t want it to cost as much or more than the regular archer line, because then it would be used a lot less, but it shouldn’t cost as little as it does.
  • :arrow_down: Technology discount changed to 10% Feudal/Castle age, 15% in Imperial. I don’t want to go all the way down to a flat 10%, because most of the lategame techs are quite expensive, but nerfing this bonus makes it harder to tech into a lot of different things at the timing you might be able to with the current discounts.

Cumans: :arrows_counterclockwise:

  • :arrows_counterclockwise::eight_pointed_black_star: Cuman Mercenaries totally removed, possibly replaced with Nomad Siegecraft, which costs 900F 700G, and removes the gold cost for rams. This just further plays into the big Cuman thing with rams, and it’s just an idea that removes Cuman Mercenaries.
  • :arrows_counterclockwise::eight_pointed_black_star: Alternate idea, Cuman Mercenaries is kept, but now reduces Cav Archer gold cost by 66%. Cost changed to 1100W 500G.

Ethiopians: :arrow_up:

  • :arrow_up: Royal Heirs decreases Shotel gold cost by 5, making it slightly easier to spam them for longer, because this tech doesn’t really do much right now, Shotels train really fast anyway, and are only viable for a small window, this opens that window slightly wider.
  • :arrow_up: Tower and Outpost max LoS increased by 5. This is literally just a bug fix, because the Ethiopian team bonus doesn’t do anything once the LoS for those buildings reaches a certain point.

Franks: :arrow_down:

  • :arrow_down: Cavalry HP bonus changed to 10%/20% in Feudal/Castle. This reduces the strength of their scout rush slightly, but doesn’t impact anything after that.
  • :arrows_counterclockwise: Current Chivalry effect removed. Chivalry now makes knights heal slowly, and return 33% of their gold cost when killed. This change is targeted at how Franks are too strong in Team Games, because trade allows for unlimited gold, and being able to spam Paladins makes Franks too good in TGs. By making this change, Chivalry becomes a bit more viable in 1v1s where gold preservation in more useful, but less useful in TGs.

Goths: :arrow_up:

  • :arrow_up: Hunting bonus changed from Villagers +5 attack against wild boar, Hunters carry +15 meat, to Villagers +5 attack against wild boar, Huntables have + 25% food. This change makes their early game a bit easier, by delaying the need for farms early, and just giving a bit more food. Each boar approximately removes the need for 1 early farm, and 4 deer do the same.
  • :arrow_down: Architecture removed. This tech probably isn’t picked up too much, but I think it should be removed, because in the lategame, the Goths should be easier to push, requiring them to be constantly on the offensive. It’s a slight hit to the lategame, but it should make the spam easier to counter, by targeting the production buildings.

Incas: :arrow_up:

  • :arrow_up: Team bonus changed to Infantry have +2 LoS. I’ve just grown to like this bonus, it’s definitely more useful than the current farming bonus, and should be balanced.
  • :arrow_up::eight_pointed_black_star: Andean Sling replaced with a new tech, El Dorado. I know this name could be better, but it is pretty distinctive as the city of gold, so even if it doesn’t fit exactly with the Incas, it suits them a lot better than it does the Mayans. The legend also featured in the Incan campaign in HD, so points for that.
  • :arrow_up: El Dorado makes Eagle Warriors cost 40% less gold. They are a super gold intensive unit, and Incas currently have the worst of the three Eagles. Also unlike the other two Meso civs, they don’t have a gold bonus. Aztecs have the +50 starting gold, and faster relic generation, and Mayans have longer lasting resources. It’s fair that Incas get something that decreases the cost.
  • :arrow_up: Elite Slinger added. Elite Slinger costs 800F, 500W, and takes 30 seconds to research. Elite Slingers have 50 HP, and 6 attack. Their projectile speed increases from 5.5 to 6, and their minimum range is removed. They have 1 pierce armor, all other stats are the same as regular slinger. This is just to add a tech that feels like it’s missing.

Indians: :arrow_up:

  • :arrow_up: Shatagni increases Hand Cannon accuracy to 100% as well, because currently it actually decreases the accuracy when the range changes, and HC aren’t a particularly overpowered unit anyway.
  • :arrows_counterclockwise: Battle Elephant added. This is partly a historical realism thing, and partly to emphasize them having several stable units, but no Knight line.
  • :arrow_up: Elite Elephant Archer range +1. Right now, it’s an expensive unit, it’s difficult to tech into, and the Elite Upgrade is expensive, but not a very big improvement over the regular version. Adding 1 range helps address that.
  • :arrow_down: Camel Units get +2 attack against buildings as a civ bonus, replacing the pierce armor bonus. Right now, Camels can melt buildings way to fast to deal with.
  • :arrow_up: New Team Bonus, stable units get +1 pierce armor in Imperial Age. This kicks in quite late, but it still helps, and it’s a more useful than the current bonus. If this is considered too strong, it could affect all units except the knight line. I’m removing the current PA bonus as well, so no, they don’t get +3 PA in Imp.

Italians: :arrows_counterclockwise:

  • :arrows_counterclockwise: Dock and University tech discount reduced to 20%, but extended to the Archery range. Right now, the Uni discount only really applies to Ballistics and Chemistry, and Italians are top 3 on water. This just improves their archer play as well, making it easier to tech in the upgrades.
  • :arrow_down: Fishing ship discount decreased to 10%, because a fish boom can literally determine the game in water and hybrid maps, so it makes fishing slightly less easy for Italians.

Magyars: :arrow_up:

  • :arrow_up: Magyars get the removed Goths bonus, and now carry +15 food from hunt. This is just a small eco bonus, to make them slightly better in the early game, because their strengths in the lategame.

Mayans: :arrow_down:

  • :arrow_down: Archer discount decreased to 10%/15%/20% in Feudal/Castle/Imperial. The current discount is too strong, Archers should be the Mayan identity, but not spamming Arbs and Plumes for such a low cost. This also functions as an indirect nerf to Plumes, because they are affected by the bonus.
  • :arrow_down: Longer lasting resources reduced to 10%. The bonus is too good, so this sands it down a bit to be more balanced.
  • :arrows_counterclockwise: El Dorado renamed to Cotton Armor, for historical accuracy, and the tech name makes a lot more sense considering the effect.

Mongols: :arrow_up:

  • :arrow_up: Nomads instantly unlocks the pop limit, in the way that Huns have their bonus. The current bonus is almost useless, and even if extended to other buildings that give pop space, you will probably just build a heap of houses anyway, making that possible effect almost obsolete.

Persians: :arrow_up:

  • :arrow_up::eight_pointed_black_star: Mahouts removed, replaced with Immortals, costing 700F 600G, taking 40 seconds to research. Possible effect for Immortals is to give the Knight line +4 anti cav armor and giving them +1 regular armor. This is the best idea I’ve managed to come up with, considering they lack Heresy and are quite vulnerable to spear line.
  • :arrow_up: War Elephants have the 30% speed bonus inherently applied.

Poles: :arrow_down:

  • :arrow_down: Szlachta Privileges now only reduces knight cost by 40%, the current 60% is too strong, and allows for mindless Cavalier spam.
  • :arrow_down: The gold to stone mining ratio decreases from 1 gold every 2 stone, to 1 to 3. This makes the Castle Drop play a bit harder on closed maps, but also impacts their strength on open maps.

Portuguese: :arrow_up:

  • :arrow_up: Tech research speed increased from 30% to 50%. At lower levels, this bonus isn’t likely to be used very effectively, and at higher levels, the timings will probably be hit naturally in other ways. Increasing this makes it slightly more useful.
  • :arrow_up: Team Bonus changed to Outposts cost no Stone, making it useful in 1v1s, as well as playing into the exploration theme, and just making them a slightly better civ.
  • :arrow_up: Genitours added to the archery range as a regional unit. This is aimed at giving the Portuguese a mobile unit that can be used by them, see the changes to the unit below.

Sicilians: :arrows_counterclockwise:

  • :arrow_down: Bonus damage reduction reduced to 25%. The current 50% is too strong, especially considering how powerful it is for cavalry, which become very difficult to counter.
  • :arrow_up: Serjeant gold cost reduced from 35 to 25. The gold cost is way too high for this unit, considering how bad it usually is. The Obuch, which is better in pretty much every way only costs 20 gold. The Sicilians have a cool idea, with the Donjon rush, but the high costs of the Serjeant make it a lot less viable. Serjeants already cost a lot of food, making villager production harder in the early game, which decreases to strength of the rush, but the high gold cost just makes the strategy very infrequently seen.
  • :arrow_up: Serjeants can now fire arrows when garrisoned in Donjons, with the same statistics as villagers. Typically you will want the Serjeants actually being used, either to fight, or to build more Donjons, but for the times where you do want to garrison them, it makes sense that they would increase the damage output for the Donjon slightly.
  • :arrows_counterclockwise: First Crusade changed. The Serjeant spawning mechanic is now removed, and possibly replaced with something that increases the Bonus damage reduction for non cavalry units to 66%, in addition to the conversion resistance.
  • :arrows_counterclockwise: Hauberk changed, it now gives +2/+1 armor, instead of the other way around. This is aimed at addressing how the knight line is now more vulnerable to spear units, as well as stopping it being so good against archers. It also makes more historical sense, which is a bonus.

Spanish: :arrow_up:

  • :arrow_up: Genitour added to the archery range. The unit will be altered, stat changes are later, in order to make it more useable for the Spanish.
  • :arrow_up: The no gold blacksmith bonus extended to Bloodlines, Supplies, and Arson. This frees up some more strategies in the early game, making it easier to execute different things, but will still be balanced, because it isn’t hugely strong.

Vietnamese: :arrows_counterclockwise:

  • :arrows_counterclockwise: Team bonus changed to Enemy Positions revealed at the beginning of the game.
  • :arrow_up::eight_pointed_black_star: Paper Money removed entirely, and replaced with Guerilla Warfare, costing 850F 650G, with a 50 second research time. Possible idea for Guerilla Warfare is that it makes archers reload and move 5%. There aren’t currently any techs that make archers move or fire faster, and this is really a hit and run style of tech. It’s just an idea though.


  • :arrow_up: Train time decreased from 25 seconds to 18 seconds, making it easier to get them out in numbers.
  • :arrow_up: Wood cost decreased to 30 from 35, so they are still more expensive that Skirmishers, but not as expensive as currently, making them easier to fit into the armies.

What do people think, and thanks for reading. Also, if anyone has any better ideas, I’m happy to change parts of what I have here, especially the new tech ideas.


Hussars for 44 food?

LMAO people still SNEEDING over the fact bohemians exist. They aren’t even good lol, check mayans, check franks! Reduce Houfnice splash by 0.05 but that’s kinda it honestly, and for the clowns- stop coping- Ports have cheap monks and everything, ballistics BBC and feitoria, turks have 13 range BBT, 14 range BBC, the best castle age UU in the game, and amazing hussars, free light cav and chemistry, fast imp potential… There are civs that are at least on par with Bohemians.

I can live with that, and the Lbow change. Britons are too good because of the team bonus though. So make the UT be +1 range and TEAM foot archers are produced 20% faster, and the TB is… sheep +2 line of sight.

Such a specialized imperial age UT doesn’t make sense. They need something more generic, also, literally yesterday I had a game on arena where a fully boomed Burg annihilated the other flank with just coustilliers, thank god I was Sara and had Mames. Don’t underestimate that charge attack.

The UT can be charge attack +10 damage and hussars also get a +10 charge attack.

This so much.

Celts don’t need this. Their imp is already too strong. The reason for stronghold is that you are supposed to supplement your siege push with castles and towers to pick off units trying to snipe it that get past the pikes. Useless tech, but celts already are quite good in everything. Could be a tech that softens the transition from Castle to Imp though, something like “military buildings provide 15 popspace each” and make it so you don’t need houses anymore kinda and can invest the wood in production/military.

Yea it’s decent.

They literally don’t ever care for having shotels except vs goth/mali/meso. What they need is a infrastructure/defensive/economic tech.

Probably something about gold and wood or having better defenses.

Sure I guess, though I’d rather see something like all units cost -30% gold, Incas are notorious for having a super gold intensive comp that’s not even as good as the one of Aztecs or Mayans.

Just make it 100%. HC won’t ever be OP.

No no no no no god no.

Also the ele archer thing- you have NEVER played against a ele archer stack in post imp. I just know it.

aNiMaLs DoNt RoT

Make it 33% the discount from the tech, but also leitchtic affects the knight line too.

Ports have one of the strongest team bonuses RN, no need.

Seethe and cope that the civ has a solid fundamental noob friendly design without being broken. Literally just use your better eco against it.

And the militia line techs won’t be awfully strong. Maybe even spear and light cav line, but who knows.

Spanish are down bad rn, they need something huge.

For such a wood dependent civ that is kinda jungly or whatever the cleanest thing I have seen is “lumberjacks don’t need to drop off the wood”. As an imp tech.


Overall 7/10, not terrible I guess, Franks just remove the berry bonus already, the genitours thing I didn’t read enough, whatever, cute concepts with the 5% faster or 10% something but those aren’t good enough for being a tech, sadly.

The general theme is that one of your UTs is a must have in like every situation and the other is situationally useful. You can’t give a civ 2 useless UTs, no matter how good that civ is.

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Maybe -10 food then?

They are incredibly good on Arena, where they can do an FC instant 4 monastery play, against 2 monasteries for the same cost from other civs. Then they have the really good spears to fight LC as a counter. Then you have the whole Castle drop and UU only being countered by monks and mangonels usually, and then to top it all off, once they reach lategame, the Houfnice is almost impossible to kill, the HW will tank shots, and the lethal halbs prevent cav doing anything. I love Bohemians as a civ, but although only average on open maps, they will beat literally pretty much any other civ on maps like Arena. They do need nerfs there.

That sounds ok.

I think that might be too strong, it would affect siege, kamayuks, infantry, and archers, as well as some other things like ships. Better to just have something to make their eagles comparable to the other Meso civs I think.

Yeah, that sounds good.

Why no so much? If it was only 1 PA in Imp, and didn’t affect knight line, would it be that heavily broken? Also, I just needed a TB, and I used up all my new ideas on the techs, and couldn’t be bothered doing research, I’m happy with alternative suggestions. Also, I have to admit, I have never played against Elephant Archer stack, it’s not a hugely commonly seen unit, especially as an entire army comp rather than just a few units. Maybe just an LoS increase or something might be better instead?

I know, I like that as well, but last time I suggested it someone said I should reuse the Goth bonus, so here we are.

I’m fine with that, it could be interesting.

It’s only really strong because of how team vision works. I think it would be better if they had a bonus more applicable to 1v1s instead, but that’s just me.

The problem is that you get to a point where the cavalier aren’t really countered by halbs too well, and they wreck archers due to Hauberk, so this improves that.

I considered also suggesting extending it to the uni techs, but I thought that might be a bit too good.

It’s not really a major thing, but it mostly helps with scout rushes, which I’ve addressed with the HP change. Don’t underestimate the 5% speed though, it can be pretty significant at times.

I mean, as an Incas fanboy, I wouldn’t say no, but I also wouldn’t say that’s not OP.

IMO lategame Incas get the strongest Meso composition with Kamayuks/Archers and/or Slingers. Imagining that with a -30% gold bonus is a little scary. :sweat_smile:

OP: haven’t you posted a similar thread before? I kinda remember seeing several concepts here with a similar formatting before.

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Well Indians also have extra pa in castle age and get the second one for free in imp. The reason why they effectively reduced their imp armor for camels in imp was that if you get to imp camel that unit was somewhat op (at least in tgs). Imo Indians are in great state atm performing really well in 1v1 due to their flexibility in counter opponents units in the midgame while being less oppressive in tgs. I honestly don’t see a reason to change that.

Which is also why…

… I don’t think this is a good idea. Historical accuracy is nice but balance is more important. Besides having extra pa in castle age and saving the res for last armor upgrade Indians have strong eco so giving them BE might just reintroduce tg balance problems that now have been solved after multiple attempts.

If people wanna see more elephant focus on indians rather tweak the ele archer imo. Like maybe give them melee trample dmg or so (just an idea not sure if this would be good).

I think the basic idea of the tech isnt bad. In late game you rely on siege and infantry. Having a lot of castles supports that kind of playstyle. It’s just that the tech is bad especially because celts dont have bracer. Maybe further increase their rof with strongholds and/or add extra arrows and/or increase dmg output.

Yes but what you propose seems like an overnerf to me. Also it’s not that everbody agrees that bohemians are totally op on arena. Some do and some don’tI’d say they are similar in strenghts to turks and teutons for instance. Reducing the discount on buildings by making them cost - 75 or - 50 instead of - 100 would be fine as a starting point imo.

And it’s fair to argue some of the free mining techs could be removed but I honestly think reducing the wood bonus on buildings is fine to stsrt off. Especially as this would make them significantly weaker on open maps. Rather I’d change the second UT. It’s just a bad tech design wise. Useless almost all the time and incredibly op in some specific use cases.

I’d even make it 33% and make the tech cheaper to compensate. I wouldn’t even say the tech is op in general but I feel it’s badly balanced as sometimes it feels useless and sometimes too strong.

This bonus on open maps really is what makes them viable to go aggressive with maa towers or defensive towers to protect vulnerable folkwards. If you decrease the ratio to 1/3 I don’t think it gives you enough gold to justify making mining camp on stone instead of gold. So I’d just leave it as is.

And I think claiming poles are op on arena is simply a false statement. Their high winrate here is due to the fact the people don’t know how to play vs the civ. If you take the proper decisions poles are way easier to deal with than turks, Bohemians, britons, teutons malay and so on. It’s a good arena civ but nothing out of the ordinary.

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Even Knight line is removed from Indians, How can battle elehant be added to Indian tech tree?

What do you mean? They don’t share a spot, how would this be a problem?

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Indians have discount on villager. This is one of the best eco bonus in the game. This facilitates knight rush a lot while maintain a constant production of villagers. Knight line is removed for the sake of this to prevent Indian knight rush being too OP. Battle Elephant added to Indians will be even more OP, esp in team games.

Yeoman’s secondary power has the peculiar effect of making the Britons a tower civilization. They are no Yasama towers, but 2 damage is quite a bit for an AOE2 upgrade. Losing that would be losing an aspect of a civilizational identity.

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Meanwhile portuguese get 20% for free


Most AOE2 games are determined in the Castle Age, so it is unwise to force a build on a civ, lest the game go Imperial Age. I would not touch the Briton range bonus. The best way to get Longbow play more common is to make them more accurate at longer ranges. Longbow Castle Age play is viable, but straight Xbow is more natural, less demanding, and ultimately better. In fact, I am fairly sure that Arb play would still predominate Imp play, with a weaker Briton civilization as the tradeoff. The Britons are in a good place, other civs need to be worked on.

I am semi-tired of everyone posting their balancing suggestions ngl, the game is in a pretty good state atm, there are very few things that need adjusting, such as Burgundians eco (a bit) and Flemish, Mayans tone down minimally and 2-3 more things like maybe Eagle Warriors +5f and have a look at Sicilians bonus resistance. There is literally no reason in ever touching perfectly balanced civs such as Berbers, Celts, Spanish, Vietnamese, all these civs have their identity and place in the game, unless you want to create a broken, bland game from a nearly perfectly balanced one.

Besides if we read carefully, some suggestions in the OP are downright stupid, for example Berbers Knights would cost 31f 75g at that point? Just send 15 to Gold, make 3 Stables and enjoy a pretty much stronger Eagle Warrior flood, you get Eagle Warriors basically but with 2x the HP and more attack. Suggestions like Berbers buff make me think some people in here are legit 800 elo in RM, Berbers is like a top 10 civ, with no eco bonus but insane army and insane late game, and OP argues buffs for them…


There’s like a dozen know it alls here posting “how things should be” like every week, including me.

It’s just $4!7posting obviously, but sometimes there are decent ideas.

Nah, I mean the formatting style. Feels like I’ve seen the exact formatting before (and similar ideas that obviously can be from different posts too).

That could simply be a matter of perceived genre by the poster.

Yeah, I did do another one recently, but I’ve refined it more now.

Oh, I kind of meant to imply removing the +1/+2 PA in Castle/Imp in exchange for +1 in Imp as a team bonus.

I suppose that’s true.

True, but overall Portuguese have a lot of other problems, as well as being quite a different civ.

I’m just establishing, I think some techs need to be changed, and it really isn’t easy thinking of effects to replace them, I’m just doing my best here. also, wouldn’t it be more like 60G? The discount also applies to gold cost.


I’ve updated parts of it, so some of the values have changed over time.

But then you reintroduce the problems they had vs archer civs before the change which was a buff for 1v1 and a nerf for tgs. Now theyre balanced while your proposal (I guess it comes along with getting last armor back bc otherwise the civ would be utter trash) would basically revert them to their old state (underwhelming in 1v1 and op in team games). Imo the civ is perfectly fine right now.

Berbers Knights flood is already very strong, and considering they also get Camels and have a very nice transition into Camel Archer (which counters Pikemen and Monks which normally are the defensive play vs all-in Knights), don’t need to be stronger.

Compare that to the all-in of a comparable Knight civ like Franks, they get… Knights with no Camel (so lose vs Camel civs), and once opponent has a critical mass of Pikemen they can… do the wonderful Throwing Axeman, who is a very slow unit, food-intensive and requires a Castle. Granted Franks can Castle drop more easily than Berbers, and sooner, but overall I’d rather be Berbers for long-term viability because as Franks if you don’t win in Castle Age, you are sort of out of it, while Berbers are insane in Imp also so you don’t have to fully commit into 1 push.

Berbers might be THE single best Castle Age Knight civ in the game right now… and you propose buffs to them… geniuses at work…

If y’all spent more time playing the game, you could actually come up with better ideas I think.

I don’t have time to make an opinion for whole lots of list. But I don’t know why you want to keep removing Genitour from berbers. Spanish did use that kind of army but it was actually originally introduced from Muslim invader. It is perfectly make sense for berbers getting that unit if it is only belong to one civ.

Also, berbers are perfectly balanced civ that doesn’t need much change. Kasbah in default TB could be too strong for UU play of team players such as Spanish/Mongols etc.

Also it may be unpopular opinion, but Chinese really need nerf? It is only top tier for top 1% of players and just average at best below that level especially after several nerfs in DE. Chinese are not really easy to play and there should be no Chinese “abuser” for climbing ladder. I think civ generally more challenging to play is slightly better at high level is not bad for game.

Chinese are only good at Arabia and some open map and they are trash in nomad due to awkward start and one of the bottom tier civ in Arena due to lack of answer to onager/BBC in late game. They need actually more help in late game if they got more nerfs in their discount.
Also, Chu Ko Nu is only special thing Chinese have in unit composition. They have only generic arb, generic cavalier/Heavy camel. I don’t think nerf Chu Ko Nu and turn them to generic archer/knight is we need to go. I think their scorpion even need some buff. 7 range scorpion almost never used and rocketry only matters for Chu Ko Nu.